1 00:00:04,160 --> 00:00:02,180 hey y'all Ryan Sprague here as you all 2 00:00:06,920 --> 00:00:04,170 know this summer in the skies podcast is 3 00:00:09,500 --> 00:00:06,930 always free to consume but it isn't free 4 00:00:11,570 --> 00:00:09,510 to create that's why I've started this 5 00:00:14,180 --> 00:00:11,580 somewhere in the skies patreon can pay 6 00:00:15,919 --> 00:00:14,190 you on a monthly basis you give what you 7 00:00:18,769 --> 00:00:15,929 think the show is worth you'll be 8 00:00:21,260 --> 00:00:18,779 helping the show continue grow and to be 9 00:00:23,480 --> 00:00:21,270 something truly communal and remember 10 00:00:26,000 --> 00:00:23,490 there are rewards for each level of 11 00:00:28,400 --> 00:00:26,010 contribution and the list is only grown 12 00:00:31,189 --> 00:00:28,410 so please help somewhere in the skies 13 00:00:37,450 --> 00:00:31,199 now by becoming a patron to contribute 14 00:00:53,340 --> 00:00:40,340 www.personalfitnesstrainerstlouis.com 15 00:01:00,160 --> 00:00:56,510 [Music] 16 00:01:04,810 --> 00:01:02,740 of course we talked about UFOs plenty on 17 00:01:07,719 --> 00:01:04,820 this show it's a subject near and dear 18 00:01:10,000 --> 00:01:07,729 to my heart I have always enjoyed it but 19 00:01:11,859 --> 00:01:10,010 I'm interested in it more than just for 20 00:01:13,899 --> 00:01:11,869 reasons of enjoyment some of the 21 00:01:16,270 --> 00:01:13,909 questions I have about UFOs include is 22 00:01:17,859 --> 00:01:16,280 the study of UFOs something that's 23 00:01:21,190 --> 00:01:17,869 worthwhile in the broader sense I mean 24 00:01:24,160 --> 00:01:21,200 can we learn things from this study and 25 00:01:25,510 --> 00:01:24,170 so I wanted to do a special roundtable 26 00:01:27,370 --> 00:01:25,520 with some friends where we would have 27 00:01:29,290 --> 00:01:27,380 some fun but we would actually have some 28 00:01:31,270 --> 00:01:29,300 serious discussion about the merits of 29 00:01:32,650 --> 00:01:31,280 UFO research you know some of the things 30 00:01:34,570 --> 00:01:32,660 that we might stand to gain from 31 00:01:36,460 --> 00:01:34,580 studying it what we may have already 32 00:01:39,040 --> 00:01:36,470 learned and what the state of affairs in 33 00:01:41,200 --> 00:01:39,050 the UFO community is at present so 34 00:01:43,600 --> 00:01:41,210 joining me are three of my favorite 35 00:01:45,330 --> 00:01:43,610 people full disclosure here and we're 36 00:01:47,650 --> 00:01:45,340 gonna call this a rogue planet 37 00:01:50,290 --> 00:01:47,660 roundtable today because all three of 38 00:01:51,580 --> 00:01:50,300 the folks here are contributors to rogue 39 00:01:53,050 --> 00:01:51,590 planet if you don't know what that is 40 00:01:54,160 --> 00:01:53,060 I'm sure you'll find out here in mere 41 00:01:56,020 --> 00:01:54,170 moments so we'll go ahead and lead off 42 00:01:58,719 --> 00:01:56,030 with Jason McClellan my man my friend 43 00:02:01,480 --> 00:01:58,729 and I believe the founder of rogue 44 00:02:02,560 --> 00:02:01,490 planet it's a podcast as a website and 45 00:02:05,109 --> 00:02:02,570 it's really kind of a state of mind 46 00:02:07,480 --> 00:02:05,119 welcome to the show my man well thank 47 00:02:09,190 --> 00:02:07,490 you Micah it's exciting to be back on 48 00:02:10,960 --> 00:02:09,200 the show and I've missed you buddy I 49 00:02:11,920 --> 00:02:10,970 have missed you too trust me we're gonna 50 00:02:14,170 --> 00:02:11,930 do this more often 51 00:02:15,819 --> 00:02:14,180 also joining us another rogue planet 52 00:02:18,400 --> 00:02:15,829 contributor another wonderful friend of 53 00:02:20,920 --> 00:02:18,410 mine miss Maureen Elsberry how are you 54 00:02:22,539 --> 00:02:20,930 I'm great thanks so much for having me 55 00:02:24,430 --> 00:02:22,549 thank you so much for bringing that 56 00:02:26,650 --> 00:02:24,440 Sasquatch Nutcracker in a hollow you 57 00:02:29,140 --> 00:02:26,660 know it that's the kind of thing that we 58 00:02:30,250 --> 00:02:29,150 I mean you got to have the right gear if 59 00:02:32,259 --> 00:02:30,260 you're gonna have a serious discussion 60 00:02:34,630 --> 00:02:32,269 like this but no serious discussion on 61 00:02:36,880 --> 00:02:34,640 UFOs would be complete without another 62 00:02:39,039 --> 00:02:36,890 friend and fellow podcaster also a rogue 63 00:02:40,930 --> 00:02:39,049 planet contributor mr. Ryan Sprague of 64 00:02:42,789 --> 00:02:40,940 the somewhere in the skies podcast how 65 00:02:44,620 --> 00:02:42,799 you doing my man I'm doing great Mike on 66 00:02:47,020 --> 00:02:44,630 my second cup of the world's strongest 67 00:02:48,310 --> 00:02:47,030 coffee sir I'm hyper and ready to talk 68 00:02:50,350 --> 00:02:48,320 about whatever you want my man let's do 69 00:02:51,940 --> 00:02:50,360 this well let's talk about that coffee 70 00:02:53,740 --> 00:02:51,950 for a moment what is the deal with this 71 00:02:55,120 --> 00:02:53,750 coffee you keep talking about I've got 72 00:02:57,400 --> 00:02:55,130 to try some of this absolutely I 73 00:02:58,599 --> 00:02:57,410 stumbled upon this on the East Coast a 74 00:03:01,240 --> 00:02:58,609 couple of years ago it's called 75 00:03:03,370 --> 00:03:01,250 Deathwish coffee so it's right there in 76 00:03:06,009 --> 00:03:03,380 the name and the world's strongest 77 00:03:08,350 --> 00:03:06,019 coffee I don't know what makes it that 78 00:03:10,990 --> 00:03:08,360 way but I can definitely attest that 79 00:03:13,180 --> 00:03:11,000 after one cup of this if you do not have 80 00:03:13,930 --> 00:03:13,190 something to eat you're gonna be shaken 81 00:03:16,150 --> 00:03:13,940 like 82 00:03:19,540 --> 00:03:16,160 leave man so definitely check them out 83 00:03:22,510 --> 00:03:19,550 if you can Death Wish Coffee calm the 84 00:03:23,800 --> 00:03:22,520 shameless plug I guess but I love it man 85 00:03:25,780 --> 00:03:23,810 I thought it would be perfect for 86 00:03:29,260 --> 00:03:25,790 someone like you sounds like some 87 00:03:31,420 --> 00:03:29,270 delicious sludge yes it is darker than 88 00:03:32,920 --> 00:03:31,430 midnight I can tell you that much 89 00:03:34,300 --> 00:03:32,930 that's right straight from the troughs 90 00:03:37,300 --> 00:03:34,310 in the back of the Mo's Eisley cantina 91 00:03:40,150 --> 00:03:37,310 on Tatooine we have Death Wish coffee 92 00:03:41,680 --> 00:03:40,160 not death stick coffee by the way but 93 00:03:42,730 --> 00:03:41,690 well you know I am a coffee drunk and 94 00:03:43,570 --> 00:03:42,740 I'm definitely gonna check that out 95 00:03:45,040 --> 00:03:43,580 because I mean this sounds like 96 00:03:47,860 --> 00:03:45,050 something I would really enjoy my only 97 00:03:50,170 --> 00:03:47,870 question is are we talking about dark 98 00:03:52,450 --> 00:03:50,180 and strong in terms of the roast or in 99 00:03:54,460 --> 00:03:52,460 terms of the caffeination both 100 00:03:56,980 --> 00:03:54,470 absolutely both I mean I'm usually a 101 00:04:00,130 --> 00:03:56,990 light to medium roast guy myself being a 102 00:04:02,410 --> 00:04:00,140 barista here in Los Angeles I I know I 103 00:04:05,140 --> 00:04:02,420 know my stuff about coffee but when I 104 00:04:08,500 --> 00:04:05,150 first had this one it hit me like a ton 105 00:04:10,870 --> 00:04:08,510 of bricks man it's so dark so bold so if 106 00:04:14,170 --> 00:04:10,880 that's your thing I think you're really 107 00:04:17,320 --> 00:04:14,180 gonna enjoy it and it is from one to a 108 00:04:19,000 --> 00:04:17,330 hundred within seconds Wow okay cool 109 00:04:20,110 --> 00:04:19,010 well I'm gonna remember that not Mari 110 00:04:22,120 --> 00:04:20,120 and of course you're in Seattle that's 111 00:04:23,800 --> 00:04:22,130 kind of like the coffee capital of the 112 00:04:26,790 --> 00:04:23,810 west coast so I'm presuming you're also 113 00:04:29,050 --> 00:04:26,800 a coffee drinker right unfortunately so 114 00:04:31,090 --> 00:04:29,060 the amount of coffee I go through at 115 00:04:33,580 --> 00:04:31,100 work is insane but I'm trying to get a 116 00:04:36,730 --> 00:04:33,590 little bit more into the tea this winter 117 00:04:38,530 --> 00:04:36,740 I'm gonna balance myself out uh I hear 118 00:04:39,909 --> 00:04:38,540 you well I tried that too it doesn't 119 00:04:42,010 --> 00:04:39,919 work you can just save yourself the 120 00:04:44,409 --> 00:04:42,020 trouble stick with the coffee you'll 121 00:04:45,760 --> 00:04:44,419 thank me later my friend hey listen for 122 00:04:48,100 --> 00:04:45,770 folks at home who don't know what rogue 123 00:04:49,510 --> 00:04:48,110 planet is normally you'd say that for 124 00:04:50,620 --> 00:04:49,520 the end of the conversation but Jason I 125 00:04:52,810 --> 00:04:50,630 want to come over you for a minute and 126 00:04:54,700 --> 00:04:52,820 just kind of have you tell us about 127 00:04:56,740 --> 00:04:54,710 rogue planet because all of you guys are 128 00:04:58,390 --> 00:04:56,750 contributors to that endeavor my brother 129 00:04:59,470 --> 00:04:58,400 also has been a contributor to rogue 130 00:05:01,180 --> 00:04:59,480 planet over the years I'm sure I'll 131 00:05:03,670 --> 00:05:01,190 probably contribute some stuff including 132 00:05:05,380 --> 00:05:03,680 a plug for you right now so hey let's 133 00:05:07,540 --> 00:05:05,390 hear about it what is it and what is its 134 00:05:08,710 --> 00:05:07,550 relevance to UFOs and sci-fi and all the 135 00:05:12,280 --> 00:05:08,720 stuff that you guys talk about 136 00:05:15,280 --> 00:05:12,290 absolutely so rogue planet is our weird 137 00:05:20,110 --> 00:05:15,290 company that did all the way back in 138 00:05:22,440 --> 00:05:20,120 2013 I guess and this is our media 139 00:05:27,250 --> 00:05:22,450 company is the simple way to put it but 140 00:05:29,470 --> 00:05:27,260 more creatively it is our weird 141 00:05:32,290 --> 00:05:29,480 and wild world just where we explore all 142 00:05:34,900 --> 00:05:32,300 of the strange we would like to say that 143 00:05:37,450 --> 00:05:34,910 we explore and celebrate all the strange 144 00:05:38,950 --> 00:05:37,460 so we're talking about UFOs we're 145 00:05:42,340 --> 00:05:38,960 talking about Bigfoot we're talking 146 00:05:44,020 --> 00:05:42,350 about ghosts just anything weird in wild 147 00:05:45,400 --> 00:05:44,030 just the mysteries of the universe we're 148 00:05:47,680 --> 00:05:45,410 all exploring them together and that's 149 00:05:48,940 --> 00:05:47,690 what rogue planet does I love it 150 00:05:50,980 --> 00:05:48,950 and part of the reason I love it is 151 00:05:52,630 --> 00:05:50,990 because you know I try to be a very 152 00:05:54,670 --> 00:05:52,640 critical thinker very skeptically 153 00:05:56,050 --> 00:05:54,680 oriented but you know I find that 154 00:05:57,910 --> 00:05:56,060 there's this kind of a weird breakdown 155 00:06:00,430 --> 00:05:57,920 where you know I could be as skeptical 156 00:06:03,340 --> 00:06:00,440 as I can be at times but I can't dismiss 157 00:06:04,930 --> 00:06:03,350 all of the evidence that we see in terms 158 00:06:07,420 --> 00:06:04,940 of let's take a subject like I know 159 00:06:10,330 --> 00:06:07,430 we're gonna get into your UFOs you can 160 00:06:12,730 --> 00:06:10,340 maybe explain 99% and I think that the 161 00:06:14,500 --> 00:06:12,740 best researchers out there are of a 162 00:06:16,630 --> 00:06:14,510 similar kind of skeptical mindset but 163 00:06:18,910 --> 00:06:16,640 then there are those minority of reports 164 00:06:20,920 --> 00:06:18,920 that don't seem to have a simple 165 00:06:22,930 --> 00:06:20,930 explanation and so the weird divide that 166 00:06:25,120 --> 00:06:22,940 I see is that people who go to the far 167 00:06:27,300 --> 00:06:25,130 extremes of ideological skepticism I 168 00:06:29,740 --> 00:06:27,310 mean I feel like there's a leap in logic 169 00:06:31,300 --> 00:06:29,750 that's involved there I mean for 170 00:06:32,770 --> 00:06:31,310 instance and I want to ask you guys all 171 00:06:35,500 --> 00:06:32,780 here in a moment about your favorite UFO 172 00:06:36,670 --> 00:06:35,510 cases and also the best book on the 173 00:06:37,750 --> 00:06:36,680 subject that you would bring to the 174 00:06:39,370 --> 00:06:37,760 table to get the conversation started 175 00:06:40,810 --> 00:06:39,380 kind of like a who is your daddy and 176 00:06:43,090 --> 00:06:40,820 what does he do kind of thing here you 177 00:06:45,010 --> 00:06:43,100 know but for me I'll lead off and tell 178 00:06:46,420 --> 00:06:45,020 you the case that comes to mind for me 179 00:06:48,340 --> 00:06:46,430 that is kind of a groundbreaking 180 00:06:50,140 --> 00:06:48,350 landmark case that makes us all kind of 181 00:06:52,060 --> 00:06:50,150 have to step back and go look I don't 182 00:06:54,790 --> 00:06:52,070 think we can easily deny that there's a 183 00:06:58,090 --> 00:06:54,800 phenomena here is the 2000 st. Clair 184 00:07:00,190 --> 00:06:58,100 County UFO instant from Illinois and 185 00:07:02,080 --> 00:07:00,200 this of course involved several police 186 00:07:04,780 --> 00:07:02,090 officers from different departments 187 00:07:06,550 --> 00:07:04,790 throughout Southern Illinois late in the 188 00:07:08,830 --> 00:07:06,560 evening or actually early in the morning 189 00:07:11,170 --> 00:07:08,840 all observing and some of them a fairly 190 00:07:13,330 --> 00:07:11,180 close range a large triangle shaped UFO 191 00:07:14,440 --> 00:07:13,340 now the thing is if it were a one-off 192 00:07:16,390 --> 00:07:14,450 and they were all saying they're seeing 193 00:07:19,690 --> 00:07:16,400 some sort of a strange object that it 194 00:07:21,280 --> 00:07:19,700 never appeared in other instances in UFO 195 00:07:22,900 --> 00:07:21,290 literature in terms of the size the 196 00:07:24,820 --> 00:07:22,910 dimensions the appearance and certain 197 00:07:26,950 --> 00:07:24,830 characteristics of its of its flight or 198 00:07:28,810 --> 00:07:26,960 behavior that would be one thing but 199 00:07:30,700 --> 00:07:28,820 this is a kind of UFO these large 200 00:07:32,410 --> 00:07:30,710 triangles and of course maybe the best 201 00:07:34,660 --> 00:07:32,420 book on the subject was written by David 202 00:07:36,490 --> 00:07:34,670 Marlar black or like it's flying 203 00:07:38,470 --> 00:07:36,500 triangles a estimate of the situation 204 00:07:40,180 --> 00:07:38,480 she was that book I recommend it to 205 00:07:41,150 --> 00:07:40,190 everybody out there interested in UFOs 206 00:07:42,710 --> 00:07:41,160 but to me that was 207 00:07:44,270 --> 00:07:42,720 that benchmark where it's like okay look 208 00:07:46,460 --> 00:07:44,280 not only do we have law enforcement 209 00:07:47,930 --> 00:07:46,470 sightings not only do we have their 210 00:07:50,210 --> 00:07:47,940 real-time audio recordings that were 211 00:07:51,560 --> 00:07:50,220 released in the police dispatch not only 212 00:07:54,260 --> 00:07:51,570 do we have a book like David where he 213 00:07:57,140 --> 00:07:54,270 talks about the radar data that was not 214 00:07:58,610 --> 00:07:57,150 only requested by some agency that 215 00:08:00,320 --> 00:07:58,620 information wasn't released to him but I 216 00:08:01,790 --> 00:08:00,330 mean an agency some government agency 217 00:08:03,980 --> 00:08:01,800 requested radar data from the nearby 218 00:08:05,780 --> 00:08:03,990 Airport but there were also civilian 219 00:08:07,370 --> 00:08:05,790 sightings too that came out years later 220 00:08:09,740 --> 00:08:07,380 and what it all seems to point to is not 221 00:08:11,060 --> 00:08:09,750 only a consistent kind of UFO but very 222 00:08:12,890 --> 00:08:11,070 credible reports from law enforcement 223 00:08:14,900 --> 00:08:12,900 officers and yet I continue to see 224 00:08:17,240 --> 00:08:14,910 people who are ideological skeptics go 225 00:08:20,240 --> 00:08:17,250 it was just a blimp nothing to see here 226 00:08:21,860 --> 00:08:20,250 so I really like people who embrace the 227 00:08:24,080 --> 00:08:21,870 strange but who go about looking at 228 00:08:25,760 --> 00:08:24,090 these things in a way that says hey what 229 00:08:27,560 --> 00:08:25,770 can we learn from them so I want to go 230 00:08:30,050 --> 00:08:27,570 to each of you guys now do you have 231 00:08:31,910 --> 00:08:30,060 favorite UFO cases and maybe a book that 232 00:08:34,310 --> 00:08:31,920 comes to mind but Maureen let's start 233 00:08:35,810 --> 00:08:34,320 with you ladies first favorite case the 234 00:08:37,490 --> 00:08:35,820 reason why it's a favor to what you 235 00:08:39,650 --> 00:08:37,500 think we learn from it and then a book 236 00:08:40,850 --> 00:08:39,660 you think everybody should read that's a 237 00:08:44,000 --> 00:08:40,860 really tough one because there's a lot 238 00:08:46,160 --> 00:08:44,010 of cases where I was really intrigued by 239 00:08:48,920 --> 00:08:46,170 and followed really closely but that I 240 00:08:50,840 --> 00:08:48,930 don't necessarily have made-up opinion 241 00:08:52,760 --> 00:08:50,850 really strictly like I believe this is 242 00:08:54,500 --> 00:08:52,770 really unusual or maybe there's an 243 00:08:56,600 --> 00:08:54,510 explanation 244 00:09:00,310 --> 00:08:56,610 but one that really hasn't been talked 245 00:09:02,960 --> 00:09:00,320 about a lot that we covered back in 2009 246 00:09:04,640 --> 00:09:02,970 and I honestly don't know if there's 247 00:09:06,410 --> 00:09:04,650 been an update because this was largely 248 00:09:08,930 --> 00:09:06,420 covered in Spanish and I would like to 249 00:09:12,710 --> 00:09:08,940 look into this further it was this cigar 250 00:09:14,540 --> 00:09:12,720 shaped object that passed over a dam in 251 00:09:17,660 --> 00:09:14,550 Argentina and about a hundred people 252 00:09:20,650 --> 00:09:17,670 witnessed it and it caused the entire 253 00:09:24,410 --> 00:09:20,660 town blackout like a few minutes later 254 00:09:25,490 --> 00:09:24,420 and cellphones were having problems and 255 00:09:29,000 --> 00:09:25,500 it caused all this electrical 256 00:09:32,410 --> 00:09:29,010 interference and the you know it was 257 00:09:35,540 --> 00:09:32,420 published a bit about in the papers but 258 00:09:38,930 --> 00:09:35,550 there is really not much research that's 259 00:09:40,850 --> 00:09:38,940 been done since then and people feel 260 00:09:43,640 --> 00:09:40,860 free to send me information if this case 261 00:09:45,440 --> 00:09:43,650 has been solved and identified because I 262 00:09:47,480 --> 00:09:45,450 haven't found anything about it again 263 00:09:50,990 --> 00:09:47,490 but I think I'm really fascinated by 264 00:09:53,900 --> 00:09:51,000 these cases that are open-ended that we 265 00:09:55,010 --> 00:09:53,910 don't actually have answers for still 266 00:09:58,400 --> 00:09:55,020 that seemed to somehow 267 00:10:02,120 --> 00:09:58,410 disappear into you know the Netherlands 268 00:10:05,660 --> 00:10:02,130 like the Chicago O'Hare incident or into 269 00:10:07,640 --> 00:10:05,670 was that 2008 you know all these 270 00:10:10,300 --> 00:10:07,650 sightings that we still don't have like 271 00:10:13,550 --> 00:10:10,310 a logical explanation for that we're 272 00:10:15,410 --> 00:10:13,560 excited by lots of people now whether 273 00:10:18,200 --> 00:10:15,420 it's extraterrestrial in nature or 274 00:10:20,300 --> 00:10:18,210 government we don't know and for that 275 00:10:22,550 --> 00:10:20,310 reason one of my favorite books on the 276 00:10:23,900 --> 00:10:22,560 subject not necessarily my favorite I 277 00:10:27,740 --> 00:10:23,910 cannot answer that question 278 00:10:29,930 --> 00:10:27,750 sure is Leslie Cain's books UFOs pilots 279 00:10:32,060 --> 00:10:29,940 and generals go on the record she covers 280 00:10:34,180 --> 00:10:32,070 a lot of these cases and I think the 281 00:10:37,550 --> 00:10:34,190 reason I'm citing this book is because 282 00:10:41,840 --> 00:10:37,560 if somebody who isn't very well-versed 283 00:10:42,950 --> 00:10:41,850 in the UFO phenomenon or you know the 284 00:10:44,990 --> 00:10:42,960 strange at all 285 00:10:48,590 --> 00:10:45,000 picks up this book they're gonna read it 286 00:10:51,230 --> 00:10:48,600 and say wow this is actually something 287 00:10:53,960 --> 00:10:51,240 interesting and doesn't sound crazy you 288 00:10:55,970 --> 00:10:53,970 know a lot of UFO books you start 289 00:10:58,700 --> 00:10:55,980 reading it and you say what the hell is 290 00:11:01,190 --> 00:10:58,710 this you know so I think that's my 291 00:11:03,710 --> 00:11:01,200 suggestion to like especially people 292 00:11:06,290 --> 00:11:03,720 just getting into it is read something 293 00:11:07,520 --> 00:11:06,300 that makes you question it and lead to 294 00:11:11,420 --> 00:11:07,530 you a little bit deeper down the rabbit 295 00:11:14,030 --> 00:11:11,430 hole in a easily digestible way very 296 00:11:16,940 --> 00:11:14,040 well sad I love that book too and you 297 00:11:19,310 --> 00:11:16,950 know Leslie was kind of I mean not only 298 00:11:21,260 --> 00:11:19,320 really a trailblazer in terms of the 299 00:11:23,750 --> 00:11:21,270 modern approach to this subject by 300 00:11:25,400 --> 00:11:23,760 writing a book and not being a career 301 00:11:26,690 --> 00:11:25,410 ufologist or somebody who does the 302 00:11:29,090 --> 00:11:26,700 lecture circuit or something but rather 303 00:11:30,800 --> 00:11:29,100 being a reporter who was interested in 304 00:11:33,200 --> 00:11:30,810 this and who wanted to cover this in a 305 00:11:34,850 --> 00:11:33,210 very strictly journalistic capacity I 306 00:11:36,500 --> 00:11:34,860 mean she she really set a precedent when 307 00:11:38,720 --> 00:11:36,510 she wrote that book but then also was 308 00:11:40,940 --> 00:11:38,730 instrumental with regard to the New York 309 00:11:42,740 --> 00:11:40,950 Times article being a co-author that 310 00:11:44,630 --> 00:11:42,750 essentially brought to public attention 311 00:11:46,610 --> 00:11:44,640 it may not have been the first place 312 00:11:47,990 --> 00:11:46,620 where the so called pentagon UFO program 313 00:11:50,810 --> 00:11:48,000 was mentioned but it certainly brought 314 00:11:52,460 --> 00:11:50,820 it to a broad audience in a respectable 315 00:11:54,650 --> 00:11:52,470 periodical like the New York Times so 316 00:11:56,930 --> 00:11:54,660 Leslie Kean is just a truly a 317 00:11:58,820 --> 00:11:56,940 trailblazer to me in every capacity but 318 00:12:00,380 --> 00:11:58,830 the thing I love about that book is 319 00:12:01,940 --> 00:12:00,390 right there in the beginning she says 320 00:12:03,950 --> 00:12:01,950 look we're not trying to tell you that 321 00:12:05,500 --> 00:12:03,960 these things are extraterrestrial but 322 00:12:07,730 --> 00:12:05,510 merely did that is one interpretation 323 00:12:08,720 --> 00:12:07,740 and even though I've really strayed 324 00:12:12,500 --> 00:12:08,730 further 325 00:12:14,350 --> 00:12:12,510 the more recent dialogue on this subject 326 00:12:16,670 --> 00:12:14,360 has kind of caused me to go but you know 327 00:12:19,610 --> 00:12:16,680 until we know exactly what we're dealing 328 00:12:21,530 --> 00:12:19,620 with I guess that has to remain on the 329 00:12:23,569 --> 00:12:21,540 table it is maybe you could say at least 330 00:12:26,750 --> 00:12:23,579 as likely or more likely an 331 00:12:28,280 --> 00:12:26,760 interpretation of some reports then or 332 00:12:29,720 --> 00:12:28,290 you know then a lot of other pet 333 00:12:31,879 --> 00:12:29,730 theories that exist so I mean she's been 334 00:12:34,519 --> 00:12:31,889 very careful in how she says look we 335 00:12:35,960 --> 00:12:34,529 need to not completely dismiss that we 336 00:12:38,120 --> 00:12:35,970 just need to be careful in making that 337 00:12:40,699 --> 00:12:38,130 connection so really I mean we don't 338 00:12:42,439 --> 00:12:40,709 know what UFOs are this is a subject 339 00:12:44,030 --> 00:12:42,449 that is interesting and I think it's 340 00:12:45,800 --> 00:12:44,040 worthy of further study and she's done 341 00:12:47,840 --> 00:12:45,810 probably the best job communicating back 342 00:12:49,730 --> 00:12:47,850 to the public so I completely agree Ryan 343 00:12:52,189 --> 00:12:49,740 let's come over to you a favorite book 344 00:12:53,900 --> 00:12:52,199 and a favorite case that really is kind 345 00:12:57,019 --> 00:12:53,910 of instructive or for other reasons you 346 00:13:01,519 --> 00:12:57,029 find it to be important sure I mean as 347 00:13:04,730 --> 00:13:01,529 for cases I think for me back in 2013 I 348 00:13:07,790 --> 00:13:04,740 sent one of my first foi a requests for 349 00:13:10,180 --> 00:13:07,800 any information on UFOs and most of them 350 00:13:13,309 --> 00:13:10,190 came back with nothing but I landed the 351 00:13:14,750 --> 00:13:13,319 1976 Tehran UFO incident that was the 352 00:13:17,449 --> 00:13:14,760 one that I actually got documentation 353 00:13:18,730 --> 00:13:17,459 back on and for anyone in your audience 354 00:13:22,370 --> 00:13:18,740 that doesn't know about this case 355 00:13:24,439 --> 00:13:22,380 happened in Tehran Iran back in 76 where 356 00:13:26,449 --> 00:13:24,449 a bunch of people started reporting 357 00:13:28,759 --> 00:13:26,459 seeing these bright brilliant lights in 358 00:13:31,550 --> 00:13:28,769 the sky over the city and they actually 359 00:13:33,290 --> 00:13:31,560 sent out some f4 phantoms to to look 360 00:13:36,500 --> 00:13:33,300 into this to see what it was the pilots 361 00:13:38,240 --> 00:13:36,510 went up saw this bright object all their 362 00:13:41,600 --> 00:13:38,250 instrumentation started to fail they 363 00:13:43,579 --> 00:13:41,610 headed back to to base and then they 364 00:13:46,220 --> 00:13:43,589 sent up the lieutenant Parviz Jafari to 365 00:13:47,540 --> 00:13:46,230 investigate himself he wanted to to go 366 00:13:50,420 --> 00:13:47,550 up there and see what was going on he 367 00:13:52,120 --> 00:13:50,430 goes up and he has the same problem his 368 00:13:54,590 --> 00:13:52,130 instrumentation starts to fail 369 00:13:57,290 --> 00:13:54,600 communication back at the base you know 370 00:14:00,230 --> 00:13:57,300 got really really bad at the time and he 371 00:14:02,540 --> 00:14:00,240 started tailing this object it to him it 372 00:14:04,670 --> 00:14:02,550 was diamond-shaped very bright and 373 00:14:07,040 --> 00:14:04,680 another smaller object actually 374 00:14:10,699 --> 00:14:07,050 descended from the larger object started 375 00:14:12,530 --> 00:14:10,709 following this plane and he had you know 376 00:14:14,300 --> 00:14:12,540 kind of a dogfight with this thing it 377 00:14:17,900 --> 00:14:14,310 actually locked on to him at one point 378 00:14:19,519 --> 00:14:17,910 he does a negative dive maneuvers the 379 00:14:21,620 --> 00:14:19,529 thing gets a lock on it and then it 380 00:14:22,640 --> 00:14:21,630 disappears out of sight they go and 381 00:14:25,840 --> 00:14:22,650 investigate this the 382 00:14:28,610 --> 00:14:25,850 today and they can't find anything but 383 00:14:31,640 --> 00:14:28,620 because our planes were being loaned to 384 00:14:33,350 --> 00:14:31,650 Iran at the time the DIA and a lot of 385 00:14:35,420 --> 00:14:33,360 our intelligence agencies did get 386 00:14:37,790 --> 00:14:35,430 involved and they wanted to do their own 387 00:14:39,070 --> 00:14:37,800 investigation so I was able to get 388 00:14:42,320 --> 00:14:39,080 Defense Intelligence Agency 389 00:14:44,450 --> 00:14:42,330 documentation on this event and this was 390 00:14:47,030 --> 00:14:44,460 many many years after Project Blue Book 391 00:14:49,730 --> 00:14:47,040 was closed so we know they actually were 392 00:14:51,950 --> 00:14:49,740 investigating UFO events after Project 393 00:14:53,780 --> 00:14:51,960 Blue Book closed so I always look at 394 00:14:57,530 --> 00:14:53,790 this one man in terms of documentation 395 00:14:58,970 --> 00:14:57,540 in terms of pilot witnesses and this is 396 00:15:00,740 --> 00:14:58,980 it for me this is the one that I always 397 00:15:03,260 --> 00:15:00,750 go to what it was I can't tell you 398 00:15:05,750 --> 00:15:03,270 unfortunately we lost Parviz Jafari 399 00:15:07,610 --> 00:15:05,760 a couple years ago but he has gone on 400 00:15:09,830 --> 00:15:07,620 record he spoke at the National Press 401 00:15:12,260 --> 00:15:09,840 Club about this event and I still go to 402 00:15:14,420 --> 00:15:12,270 it when only anyone asks me what is a 403 00:15:17,180 --> 00:15:14,430 documented case to look at or something 404 00:15:18,530 --> 00:15:17,190 actually happened so that's it for me in 405 00:15:21,470 --> 00:15:18,540 terms of a book I actually have one 406 00:15:24,650 --> 00:15:21,480 that's upcoming in 2019 and that's 407 00:15:27,380 --> 00:15:24,660 American cosmic by Diana pisanka 408 00:15:30,350 --> 00:15:27,390 this is an amazing book that I had the 409 00:15:33,580 --> 00:15:30,360 privilege of getting a copy of recently 410 00:15:37,100 --> 00:15:33,590 to review and she is a religious studies 411 00:15:40,430 --> 00:15:37,110 professor I believe in North Carolina of 412 00:15:43,160 --> 00:15:40,440 all places and in it's a book about the 413 00:15:45,710 --> 00:15:43,170 study of the subject of UFOs and sort of 414 00:15:47,630 --> 00:15:45,720 the the belief that we put around that 415 00:15:50,360 --> 00:15:47,640 you know she's interviewed tons of 416 00:15:53,630 --> 00:15:50,370 religious scholars scientists she's met 417 00:15:55,610 --> 00:15:53,640 with some people that we know now as the 418 00:15:57,440 --> 00:15:55,620 invisible college this group of 419 00:16:00,560 --> 00:15:57,450 scientists who come together every year 420 00:16:02,690 --> 00:16:00,570 to discuss the UFO phenomenon sort of in 421 00:16:04,730 --> 00:16:02,700 the shadows in the book is called 422 00:16:07,490 --> 00:16:04,740 American cosmic UFOs religion in 423 00:16:09,410 --> 00:16:07,500 technology it was a fascinating read if 424 00:16:12,500 --> 00:16:09,420 you're one that really wants to look at 425 00:16:15,620 --> 00:16:12,510 the sort of cultural aspect of ufology 426 00:16:17,720 --> 00:16:15,630 and and everything in between I highly 427 00:16:19,520 --> 00:16:17,730 suggest checking it out and it's going 428 00:16:21,800 --> 00:16:19,530 to release in February of this upcoming 429 00:16:23,360 --> 00:16:21,810 year fascinating I really want to see 430 00:16:24,980 --> 00:16:23,370 that also and maybe we'll have to get 431 00:16:26,240 --> 00:16:24,990 her on the podcast too to talk about 432 00:16:27,650 --> 00:16:26,250 that Jason before we come over to you I 433 00:16:29,540 --> 00:16:27,660 want to make a couple of points too 434 00:16:31,550 --> 00:16:29,550 about the Tehran incident because that 435 00:16:32,510 --> 00:16:31,560 one's always fascinated me as well Ryan 436 00:16:34,640 --> 00:16:32,520 I didn't know that you had actually 437 00:16:36,439 --> 00:16:34,650 obtained additional information 438 00:16:38,239 --> 00:16:36,449 pertaining to that by a FOIA so coup 439 00:16:40,939 --> 00:16:38,249 those to you again that's one of the 440 00:16:42,259 --> 00:16:40,949 most interesting areas of UFO research 441 00:16:43,849 --> 00:16:42,269 right now where we are continuing to 442 00:16:45,739 --> 00:16:43,859 find new things I've spoken with you of 443 00:16:47,989 --> 00:16:45,749 course just now about that but of course 444 00:16:49,939 --> 00:16:47,999 in the past on this show I've had Paul 445 00:16:51,679 --> 00:16:49,949 Dean on and he found two similar 446 00:16:53,900 --> 00:16:51,689 instances with programs that date back 447 00:16:56,539 --> 00:16:53,910 to the Vietnam era have fear and lethal 448 00:16:58,489 --> 00:16:56,549 chaser where the names of these Vietnam 449 00:17:00,559 --> 00:16:58,499 era the studies where basically they 450 00:17:02,599 --> 00:17:00,569 were trying to ascertain what these 451 00:17:04,189 --> 00:17:02,609 strange egg-shaped objects that gave off 452 00:17:06,799 --> 00:17:04,199 blue light as they flew at incredible 453 00:17:08,480 --> 00:17:06,809 speed over the Vietcong you know some of 454 00:17:10,039 --> 00:17:08,490 the actual battlefront during the 455 00:17:11,210 --> 00:17:10,049 conflict I mean what these things were 456 00:17:13,340 --> 00:17:11,220 they were trying to determine if this 457 00:17:15,259 --> 00:17:13,350 was some sort of enemy technology they 458 00:17:16,460 --> 00:17:15,269 were pretty you know quickly able to 459 00:17:18,139 --> 00:17:16,470 determine this was not something that 460 00:17:19,819 --> 00:17:18,149 the enemy possessed but they couldn't 461 00:17:21,679 --> 00:17:19,829 identify these aircraft and they had all 462 00:17:23,840 --> 00:17:21,689 kinds of different state-of-the-art 463 00:17:25,460 --> 00:17:23,850 technology for that time including or 464 00:17:27,379 --> 00:17:25,470 including laser technology and 465 00:17:29,060 --> 00:17:27,389 telescopic arrays all kinds of things 466 00:17:31,009 --> 00:17:29,070 they that they were using to try and 467 00:17:33,230 --> 00:17:31,019 track and to certain information about 468 00:17:35,419 --> 00:17:33,240 what these objects were and so again 469 00:17:37,490 --> 00:17:35,429 when we saw the conclusion of Project 470 00:17:39,289 --> 00:17:37,500 Blue Book in around 68 there were 471 00:17:40,639 --> 00:17:39,299 obviously obviously iterations of 472 00:17:42,889 --> 00:17:40,649 government studies even if they were 473 00:17:44,299 --> 00:17:42,899 limited in scope that continued in the 474 00:17:46,039 --> 00:17:44,309 decades thereafter leading right up to 475 00:17:47,899 --> 00:17:46,049 the Pentagon program but a question 476 00:17:49,970 --> 00:17:47,909 always have about these cases with 477 00:17:52,250 --> 00:17:49,980 regard to like Tehran for instance we 478 00:17:54,529 --> 00:17:52,260 have the little object that comes off of 479 00:17:57,200 --> 00:17:54,539 the main primary aircraft and then 480 00:17:59,180 --> 00:17:57,210 begins to kind of play cat-and-mouse you 481 00:18:01,039 --> 00:17:59,190 see that an awful lot in UFO literature 482 00:18:03,710 --> 00:18:01,049 where someone will begin chasing an 483 00:18:04,970 --> 00:18:03,720 unidentified aircraft or object and then 484 00:18:06,409 --> 00:18:04,980 the object will circle back around and 485 00:18:08,360 --> 00:18:06,419 get behind them or it will go directly 486 00:18:10,730 --> 00:18:08,370 for them and be on a collision course 487 00:18:12,350 --> 00:18:10,740 what's that all of that I mean is it is 488 00:18:14,269 --> 00:18:12,360 it a completely just a tactical 489 00:18:17,269 --> 00:18:14,279 maneuvering is there a curiosity one has 490 00:18:19,639 --> 00:18:17,279 to wonder exactly what the mindset of 491 00:18:21,620 --> 00:18:19,649 the what do you call it a pilot we don't 492 00:18:23,899 --> 00:18:21,630 know but I mean what is the the motive 493 00:18:27,740 --> 00:18:23,909 or the intention of the aircraft when 494 00:18:30,019 --> 00:18:27,750 they do this for me man I I honestly 495 00:18:32,570 --> 00:18:30,029 think it's the probe of a probe I think 496 00:18:35,419 --> 00:18:32,580 the main mothership as we'll call it is 497 00:18:36,590 --> 00:18:35,429 a probe since here maybe to monitor us I 498 00:18:38,779 --> 00:18:36,600 don't know if we're gonna get really 499 00:18:40,700 --> 00:18:38,789 hypothetical and say it is alien maybe 500 00:18:43,220 --> 00:18:40,710 that's it and then this is another 501 00:18:45,379 --> 00:18:43,230 object coming out to scope out the 502 00:18:47,840 --> 00:18:45,389 surrounding circumference of of the 503 00:18:49,039 --> 00:18:47,850 threat possible threat to itself I don't 504 00:18:50,120 --> 00:18:49,049 know I know that's a little out there 505 00:18:52,539 --> 00:18:50,130 but again 506 00:18:56,090 --> 00:18:52,549 my third cup of this this coffee here 507 00:18:58,669 --> 00:18:56,100 well you know again the the hypothesis 508 00:19:01,100 --> 00:18:58,679 of these aircraft being probes of some 509 00:19:02,240 --> 00:19:01,110 kind coming from a larger mothership 510 00:19:03,440 --> 00:19:02,250 that may even be outside of Earth's 511 00:19:05,990 --> 00:19:03,450 atmosphere I mean that goes all the way 512 00:19:07,310 --> 00:19:06,000 back to the early days of ufology so 513 00:19:08,870 --> 00:19:07,320 it's not a new idea but it was an 514 00:19:10,370 --> 00:19:08,880 interesting one at the time it was put 515 00:19:12,529 --> 00:19:10,380 forth I still find it interesting today 516 00:19:14,480 --> 00:19:12,539 again we just need to look at all the 517 00:19:15,650 --> 00:19:14,490 possibilities a skeptical interpretation 518 00:19:18,710 --> 00:19:15,660 of that incident was that there was 519 00:19:20,060 --> 00:19:18,720 simply a planet Venus probably that was 520 00:19:21,230 --> 00:19:20,070 the light and that the equipment 521 00:19:23,960 --> 00:19:21,240 malfunction was just because there were 522 00:19:25,640 --> 00:19:23,970 rickety old Jets us-made aircraft by the 523 00:19:27,110 --> 00:19:25,650 way but they basically had equipment 524 00:19:29,270 --> 00:19:27,120 failings you know that happens all the 525 00:19:29,630 --> 00:19:29,280 time and government guys nothing to see 526 00:19:32,419 --> 00:19:29,640 here 527 00:19:34,279 --> 00:19:32,429 Jason oh man let's let's talk about your 528 00:19:36,140 --> 00:19:34,289 favorite case and then the book that 529 00:19:39,740 --> 00:19:36,150 you'd recommend - I think I'd probably 530 00:19:43,549 --> 00:19:39,750 go with colores colores is a Brazilian 531 00:19:47,149 --> 00:19:43,559 island and there was a wave or flap I 532 00:19:50,750 --> 00:19:47,159 guess of UFO incidents that took place 533 00:19:54,020 --> 00:19:50,760 there around 1977 and this is one of the 534 00:19:57,710 --> 00:19:54,030 freakier UFO cases UFO instances because 535 00:20:00,020 --> 00:19:57,720 these UFOs physically harmed people they 536 00:20:02,330 --> 00:20:00,030 were balls of light they shot like 537 00:20:05,649 --> 00:20:02,340 lasers at people and burned skin and 538 00:20:07,880 --> 00:20:05,659 caused paralysis and other health issues 539 00:20:10,190 --> 00:20:07,890 government was called in the military 540 00:20:11,539 --> 00:20:10,200 because the nearby villages where people 541 00:20:14,360 --> 00:20:11,549 were freaking out they didn't know what 542 00:20:16,340 --> 00:20:14,370 to do so they wanted military assistance 543 00:20:19,549 --> 00:20:16,350 so the military came in and launched 544 00:20:21,440 --> 00:20:19,559 this operation to figure out what these 545 00:20:24,470 --> 00:20:21,450 things were that we're flying around in 546 00:20:26,390 --> 00:20:24,480 the skies and shooting people so the 547 00:20:28,880 --> 00:20:26,400 military conducted an investigation 548 00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:28,890 there the military operatives themselves 549 00:20:33,350 --> 00:20:31,650 witnessed these UFOs some of them diving 550 00:20:35,930 --> 00:20:33,360 in and coming out of the water just 551 00:20:39,110 --> 00:20:35,940 really remarkable stuff allegedly they 552 00:20:43,909 --> 00:20:39,120 also got hundreds of photos and video of 553 00:20:46,340 --> 00:20:43,919 these things - that has been heavily 554 00:20:49,120 --> 00:20:46,350 researched heavily documented I think 555 00:20:51,560 --> 00:20:49,130 some of the government files on that 556 00:20:53,240 --> 00:20:51,570 operation have come to light now I 557 00:20:56,299 --> 00:20:53,250 haven't personally seen them but I know 558 00:20:57,740 --> 00:20:56,309 that researchers in Brazil have been 559 00:20:59,240 --> 00:20:57,750 working with the government for years 560 00:21:02,060 --> 00:20:59,250 trying to get some of that stuff out to 561 00:21:03,800 --> 00:21:02,070 the public age hfir is one of those 562 00:21:06,500 --> 00:21:03,810 individuals in Brazil who 563 00:21:10,340 --> 00:21:06,510 tirelessly with the military to get that 564 00:21:12,440 --> 00:21:10,350 stuff out the general who I think he was 565 00:21:15,560 --> 00:21:12,450 the general who was leading that 566 00:21:18,860 --> 00:21:15,570 investigation at the time he is now 567 00:21:22,670 --> 00:21:18,870 deceased but I think he was very vocal 568 00:21:24,590 --> 00:21:22,680 about the whole whole flap as well so he 569 00:21:26,510 --> 00:21:24,600 went on record talking about it but 570 00:21:28,370 --> 00:21:26,520 again one of the weirdest to me one of 571 00:21:30,560 --> 00:21:28,380 the freakiest because when you hear 572 00:21:33,650 --> 00:21:30,570 about UFO UFO sightings UFO cases it's 573 00:21:35,450 --> 00:21:33,660 usually somebody saw a UFO and that was 574 00:21:37,760 --> 00:21:35,460 that but when you have these UFOs 575 00:21:39,950 --> 00:21:37,770 physically attacking people that's where 576 00:21:43,190 --> 00:21:39,960 it gets freaky absolutely what about a 577 00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:43,200 book a book would it be tacky see I 578 00:21:49,670 --> 00:21:44,850 think it would be tacky for me on this 579 00:21:51,950 --> 00:21:49,680 show to suggest the UFO singularity it 580 00:21:54,620 --> 00:21:51,960 would be tacky all right so I won't go 581 00:21:56,330 --> 00:21:54,630 there but you know not to not to be a 582 00:21:58,160 --> 00:21:56,340 cheater but I have to echo what Maureen 583 00:22:00,920 --> 00:21:58,170 said that's always my go-to when people 584 00:22:03,620 --> 00:22:00,930 ask about a UFO book I always refer 585 00:22:04,970 --> 00:22:03,630 people to Lesley Kane's UFOs generals 586 00:22:07,580 --> 00:22:04,980 pilots and government officials go on 587 00:22:10,510 --> 00:22:07,590 the record because that is a very 588 00:22:13,370 --> 00:22:10,520 straight-laced just you know 589 00:22:15,080 --> 00:22:13,380 straightforward book about credible 590 00:22:16,850 --> 00:22:15,090 credible people in their own words 591 00:22:19,370 --> 00:22:16,860 talking about their personal experiences 592 00:22:20,240 --> 00:22:19,380 and these aren't just random people that 593 00:22:23,060 --> 00:22:20,250 nobody knows 594 00:22:25,100 --> 00:22:23,070 these are high-ranking military and 595 00:22:26,990 --> 00:22:25,110 government officials and pilots you know 596 00:22:29,510 --> 00:22:27,000 so their their testimony lends a little 597 00:22:31,190 --> 00:22:29,520 more credibility like Maureen said it's 598 00:22:33,950 --> 00:22:31,200 it's more digestible to the general 599 00:22:36,140 --> 00:22:33,960 public and I think it's a great entry 600 00:22:38,030 --> 00:22:36,150 like Maureen said to start going down 601 00:22:41,810 --> 00:22:38,040 that rabbit hole but it is you know a 602 00:22:44,180 --> 00:22:41,820 very very easy entry into UFO studies 603 00:22:46,370 --> 00:22:44,190 and you paints the picture of hey this 604 00:22:49,220 --> 00:22:46,380 isn't just some crazy thing that only a 605 00:22:53,630 --> 00:22:49,230 few weirdos see or claim to have seen 606 00:22:55,340 --> 00:22:53,640 UFOs all these high-ranking military and 607 00:22:57,640 --> 00:22:55,350 government officials are also seeing 608 00:23:00,440 --> 00:22:57,650 these things yeah again that I couldn't 609 00:23:02,210 --> 00:23:00,450 express to you how glad I am the two of 610 00:23:03,800 --> 00:23:02,220 our panelists here from rogue planet 611 00:23:05,390 --> 00:23:03,810 have recommended that book because I 612 00:23:07,580 --> 00:23:05,400 think it should be the go-to for the 613 00:23:09,530 --> 00:23:07,590 modern era it's a very strict and sober 614 00:23:11,420 --> 00:23:09,540 kind of look at what this phenomena 615 00:23:13,430 --> 00:23:11,430 could be it's not a bunch of speculation 616 00:23:15,320 --> 00:23:13,440 I want to come back to the Caloris case 617 00:23:17,460 --> 00:23:15,330 here in just a second here because that 618 00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:17,470 was mentioned by one of my favorite UFO 619 00:23:21,330 --> 00:23:19,690 Searchers over the last several decades 620 00:23:22,799 --> 00:23:21,340 in one of his books and also a book that 621 00:23:24,480 --> 00:23:22,809 I would recommend but you know you 622 00:23:26,460 --> 00:23:24,490 mentioned a book that I wrote the UFO 623 00:23:28,020 --> 00:23:26,470 singularity and it's funny because that 624 00:23:29,370 --> 00:23:28,030 was a really speculative looking yet of 625 00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:29,380 course the books that I tend to 626 00:23:33,750 --> 00:23:31,210 recommend are much more objective and 627 00:23:36,590 --> 00:23:33,760 almost go about UFO studies in a 628 00:23:38,580 --> 00:23:36,600 journalistic and also is a historical 629 00:23:40,590 --> 00:23:38,590 method you know or they imply a 630 00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:40,600 historical methodology as lesley kane 631 00:23:45,510 --> 00:23:43,330 did and also as David Marla does with 632 00:23:47,190 --> 00:23:45,520 his triangle UFOs book but you know I 633 00:23:50,279 --> 00:23:47,200 feel in a lot of ways like with the UFO 634 00:23:51,390 --> 00:23:50,289 singularity almost failed to get in in 635 00:23:52,919 --> 00:23:51,400 terms of trying to get my point across 636 00:23:54,779 --> 00:23:52,929 and I'm sure I may have critics out 637 00:23:56,100 --> 00:23:54,789 there that would laugh and and rejoice 638 00:23:58,680 --> 00:23:56,110 it hearing me say that but let me 639 00:24:00,899 --> 00:23:58,690 qualify my statement you know because I 640 00:24:03,210 --> 00:24:00,909 think that you know in looking at this 641 00:24:06,539 --> 00:24:03,220 phenomena we all too often go to the 642 00:24:08,820 --> 00:24:06,549 whole été and extra-terrestrial you know 643 00:24:10,710 --> 00:24:08,830 the ETH or the et hypothesis that that 644 00:24:13,950 --> 00:24:10,720 is the best and most likely explanation 645 00:24:15,690 --> 00:24:13,960 for UFOs it may or may not be again I 646 00:24:17,580 --> 00:24:15,700 say it remains on the table I'm not so 647 00:24:18,870 --> 00:24:17,590 sure that it's the only hypothesis we 648 00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:18,880 should be looking at and so you know I 649 00:24:22,500 --> 00:24:20,650 wrote a book that was looking at other 650 00:24:23,700 --> 00:24:22,510 hypotheses but again I'm the kind of 651 00:24:25,470 --> 00:24:23,710 person I don't know about you guys and 652 00:24:27,810 --> 00:24:25,480 maybe you guys can talk about this but I 653 00:24:29,490 --> 00:24:27,820 like to put forward ideas for sake of 654 00:24:31,500 --> 00:24:29,500 conversation so that we can try and 655 00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:31,510 reorient our thought about a subject 656 00:24:35,190 --> 00:24:33,730 without necessarily endorsing it and 657 00:24:37,380 --> 00:24:35,200 saying therefore that is what I think 658 00:24:38,850 --> 00:24:37,390 these things are I guess what I took for 659 00:24:42,120 --> 00:24:38,860 granted with my own writing on this 660 00:24:44,460 --> 00:24:42,130 subject is that most UFO researchers who 661 00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:44,470 are speculative do tend to kind of marry 662 00:24:48,120 --> 00:24:46,690 their own belief system to what they're 663 00:24:49,860 --> 00:24:48,130 talking about I don't I never really 664 00:24:52,260 --> 00:24:49,870 have because I don't know what these 665 00:24:54,090 --> 00:24:52,270 things are so that's the reason I really 666 00:24:55,950 --> 00:24:54,100 I'm with you on the Leslie King book 667 00:24:58,080 --> 00:24:55,960 because she doesn't commit to any 668 00:25:00,450 --> 00:24:58,090 theories but there is a side to this 669 00:25:02,669 --> 00:25:00,460 where I think we do need to speculate 670 00:25:05,100 --> 00:25:02,679 because we we haven't quite figured out 671 00:25:07,020 --> 00:25:05,110 what this phenomena is and science does 672 00:25:08,940 --> 00:25:07,030 proceed in such a way that sometimes we 673 00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:08,950 have to speculate inform hypotheses but 674 00:25:12,990 --> 00:25:11,650 then we also have to institute a test 675 00:25:15,930 --> 00:25:13,000 for falsehood we have to be able to 676 00:25:18,450 --> 00:25:15,940 falsify our theories so that we can rule 677 00:25:20,850 --> 00:25:18,460 out what is least likely and work toward 678 00:25:23,070 --> 00:25:20,860 a more probable conclusion with UFOs I 679 00:25:24,990 --> 00:25:23,080 haven't seen a whole lot of you know 680 00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:25,000 methodology and I haven't seen a whole 681 00:25:29,580 --> 00:25:27,250 lot of you know of careful consideration 682 00:25:31,350 --> 00:25:29,590 put toward this subject over the last 683 00:25:33,090 --> 00:25:31,360 several decades in the context 684 00:25:35,520 --> 00:25:33,100 you know a collective group of 685 00:25:37,590 --> 00:25:35,530 ufologists saying look let's let's all 686 00:25:40,049 --> 00:25:37,600 come together and let's try to reach a 687 00:25:41,669 --> 00:25:40,059 consensus on what we think this is some 688 00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:41,679 people would argue that no no come on 689 00:25:44,669 --> 00:25:43,330 they all think it's see it's aliens but 690 00:25:46,919 --> 00:25:44,679 obviously they don't I mean I think that 691 00:25:49,049 --> 00:25:46,929 there's so much divided opinion about 692 00:25:50,039 --> 00:25:49,059 what this phenomena represents Mario 693 00:25:52,350 --> 00:25:50,049 I'll come over to you for a moment I 694 00:25:54,539 --> 00:25:52,360 mean is there some way maybe that we 695 00:25:56,669 --> 00:25:54,549 could that we could try to orient on our 696 00:25:58,620 --> 00:25:56,679 thought on this subject a little better 697 00:26:00,210 --> 00:25:58,630 that we can find common ground and 698 00:26:02,789 --> 00:26:00,220 therefore as a community kind of say 699 00:26:04,169 --> 00:26:02,799 okay we as the UFO community we all kind 700 00:26:06,990 --> 00:26:04,179 of have different ideas but we think 701 00:26:10,110 --> 00:26:07,000 this is what's most likely how can we do 702 00:26:13,500 --> 00:26:10,120 that I wish that we possibly could but I 703 00:26:15,510 --> 00:26:13,510 think that currently the way people's 704 00:26:18,630 --> 00:26:15,520 mindsets is a lot of the time within the 705 00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:18,640 UFO community is I believe with what I 706 00:26:24,060 --> 00:26:21,010 believe and so I'm going to set out to 707 00:26:25,590 --> 00:26:24,070 prove that this my theory is true which 708 00:26:28,020 --> 00:26:25,600 is not the way it should be what it 709 00:26:30,210 --> 00:26:28,030 should be is like you said let's all try 710 00:26:31,500 --> 00:26:30,220 to figure out what this is that's the 711 00:26:35,039 --> 00:26:31,510 way to solve it 712 00:26:38,970 --> 00:26:35,049 yeah it'd be great if you know I think 713 00:26:41,220 --> 00:26:38,980 outside of the mutual UFO network who 714 00:26:44,310 --> 00:26:41,230 has some process within how they 715 00:26:46,770 --> 00:26:44,320 investigate things there should be I 716 00:26:50,700 --> 00:26:46,780 think like hey let's all get together 717 00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:50,710 we're a young guard of UFO researchers 718 00:26:55,140 --> 00:26:53,410 you know and develop a process and and 719 00:26:57,360 --> 00:26:55,150 let's all try to figure this out let's 720 00:26:59,370 --> 00:26:57,370 break the research up you take this 721 00:27:03,810 --> 00:26:59,380 angle you take this angle let's rule out 722 00:27:05,610 --> 00:27:03,820 all the possible explanations before we 723 00:27:07,590 --> 00:27:05,620 settle on something let's try and figure 724 00:27:10,350 --> 00:27:07,600 this out it'd be great if we could do 725 00:27:13,220 --> 00:27:10,360 more like you know SETI even does 726 00:27:16,310 --> 00:27:13,230 crowdfunded research but unfortunately 727 00:27:19,110 --> 00:27:16,320 within this community we have that 728 00:27:21,210 --> 00:27:19,120 personal prejudice that that people have 729 00:27:25,530 --> 00:27:21,220 on their their own beliefs so to speak 730 00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:25,540 and I'm not sure how we fight against 731 00:27:29,669 --> 00:27:28,090 that I think it would have to be because 732 00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:29,679 I guarantee you let's say we work out 733 00:27:35,990 --> 00:27:33,010 this process and the five of us there's 734 00:27:38,850 --> 00:27:36,000 not five of us the four of us you know 735 00:27:41,909 --> 00:27:38,860 analyze a case and we break up research 736 00:27:44,850 --> 00:27:41,919 and we reach out to other people in the 737 00:27:47,039 --> 00:27:44,860 community and we come to a conclusion 738 00:27:49,950 --> 00:27:47,049 based on all of our research and we 739 00:27:53,750 --> 00:27:49,960 present that to the general public I 740 00:27:56,190 --> 00:27:53,760 guarantee you we're gonna have people 741 00:27:57,659 --> 00:27:56,200 coming back and saying no that's not it 742 00:28:00,060 --> 00:27:57,669 it's definitely aliens or it's 743 00:28:02,399 --> 00:28:00,070 definitely this they visited me and this 744 00:28:06,090 --> 00:28:02,409 happened and I know everything and you 745 00:28:08,759 --> 00:28:06,100 know nothing so that's I think that's 746 00:28:11,310 --> 00:28:08,769 the biggest problem within the research 747 00:28:13,860 --> 00:28:11,320 community currently yeah I think it 748 00:28:16,860 --> 00:28:13,870 extends to I mean you know even the 749 00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:16,870 sciences I remember seeing a article by 750 00:28:22,159 --> 00:28:19,570 then I guess he was the the editor of 751 00:28:24,500 --> 00:28:22,169 The Lancet Journal and he had said that 752 00:28:27,269 --> 00:28:24,510 unfortunately a lot of what we publish 753 00:28:29,159 --> 00:28:27,279 could be called pseudoscience because he 754 00:28:31,769 --> 00:28:29,169 said the peer review process is not 755 00:28:33,779 --> 00:28:31,779 always working in terms of scientific 756 00:28:36,629 --> 00:28:33,789 accuracy at often is working in toward 757 00:28:38,519 --> 00:28:36,639 in terms of bias confirmation on part of 758 00:28:40,230 --> 00:28:38,529 the peer reviewers and he said that's 759 00:28:42,029 --> 00:28:40,240 not good science and we need to try and 760 00:28:44,730 --> 00:28:42,039 find a way around this I see it's less 761 00:28:46,230 --> 00:28:44,740 often discussed in relation to science 762 00:28:47,580 --> 00:28:46,240 journals but if you go online and just 763 00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:47,590 do a search for you no problems with 764 00:28:50,730 --> 00:28:49,690 peer review and problems with with you 765 00:28:52,710 --> 00:28:50,740 know scientific inquiry 766 00:28:54,060 --> 00:28:52,720 there are countless articles that will 767 00:28:56,399 --> 00:28:54,070 show up so I mean I would just say that 768 00:28:58,950 --> 00:28:56,409 UF ology is no different in that regard 769 00:29:01,320 --> 00:28:58,960 it's simply that at least in in 770 00:29:03,570 --> 00:29:01,330 mainstream scientific circles you know 771 00:29:05,190 --> 00:29:03,580 when science is being applied to the 772 00:29:07,740 --> 00:29:05,200 study of natural phenomena in our 773 00:29:09,990 --> 00:29:07,750 universe what scientists do try to find 774 00:29:12,149 --> 00:29:10,000 is well in addition to a test for fall 775 00:29:13,620 --> 00:29:12,159 so then they falsify their results and 776 00:29:15,570 --> 00:29:13,630 work toward conclusions in that way then 777 00:29:18,539 --> 00:29:15,580 they eventually come to a consensus and 778 00:29:19,980 --> 00:29:18,549 peer review helps reach that so again 779 00:29:21,419 --> 00:29:19,990 it's it's problematic for me because I 780 00:29:23,009 --> 00:29:21,429 wouldn't want to say that science or the 781 00:29:25,379 --> 00:29:23,019 scientific method has failed us with 782 00:29:27,210 --> 00:29:25,389 UFOs but I do think that the problem 783 00:29:29,129 --> 00:29:27,220 seems to be twofold that a there's 784 00:29:31,980 --> 00:29:29,139 plenty of anecdotal evidence suggestive 785 00:29:33,450 --> 00:29:31,990 of some sort of phenomena and yet for 786 00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:33,460 some strange reason for the longest time 787 00:29:37,740 --> 00:29:36,130 the consensus attitude has been that 788 00:29:39,450 --> 00:29:37,750 what the scientific method leads us to 789 00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:39,460 is that kites weather balloons and stars 790 00:29:45,750 --> 00:29:42,250 or planets can explain all these cases 791 00:29:48,389 --> 00:29:45,760 that seems extremely illogical to me I 792 00:29:51,269 --> 00:29:48,399 want to come back as I said Jason to the 793 00:29:53,010 --> 00:29:51,279 Caloris Brazil cases because in terms of 794 00:29:55,289 --> 00:29:53,020 people who have tried to apply science 795 00:29:56,909 --> 00:29:55,299 to this subject there was one who wrote 796 00:29:58,130 --> 00:29:56,919 about that case and he included 797 00:29:59,930 --> 00:29:58,140 photographs of his 798 00:30:02,030 --> 00:29:59,940 went there on site to look into it this 799 00:30:03,860 --> 00:30:02,040 was of course John Ballet and he talks 800 00:30:06,950 --> 00:30:03,870 about this in his book confrontations 801 00:30:08,660 --> 00:30:06,960 now no UFO researcher is perfect I get 802 00:30:10,420 --> 00:30:08,670 it but Jacques ballet was a man who 803 00:30:13,280 --> 00:30:10,430 tried to look at this subject 804 00:30:16,850 --> 00:30:13,290 scientifically he tried to bring science 805 00:30:19,730 --> 00:30:16,860 to this and he was kind of if not led to 806 00:30:22,460 --> 00:30:19,740 any specific conclusions he was led away 807 00:30:24,980 --> 00:30:22,470 from the et hypothesis hypothesis with 808 00:30:27,260 --> 00:30:24,990 his own investigation into cases like 809 00:30:29,090 --> 00:30:27,270 that and myriad others that he looked at 810 00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:29,100 over the years I mean Jacques Vallee 811 00:30:33,110 --> 00:30:30,570 kind of made some news this year because 812 00:30:35,060 --> 00:30:33,120 he he basically said I'm leaving for 813 00:30:36,620 --> 00:30:35,070 good this time and he also said you know 814 00:30:37,910 --> 00:30:36,630 the UFO community coming back to what 815 00:30:41,300 --> 00:30:37,920 Maureen was talking about it's just too 816 00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:41,310 vain there doesn't seem to be enough in 817 00:30:46,430 --> 00:30:43,530 terms of serious research among this 818 00:30:47,690 --> 00:30:46,440 community for it to justify me wanting 819 00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:47,700 to be involved do you have any thoughts 820 00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:49,770 about Jacques Vallee or or you know sort 821 00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:50,970 of his perspectives warranted or 822 00:30:56,810 --> 00:30:52,770 unwarranted in your opinion well he's 823 00:31:00,410 --> 00:30:56,820 certainly an individual who has spent so 824 00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:00,420 much time investigating this mysterious 825 00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:04,130 phenomenon and related phenomena and I 826 00:31:10,930 --> 00:31:07,890 highly value his opinion on things we've 827 00:31:13,220 --> 00:31:10,940 certainly seen you know a bit of 828 00:31:15,140 --> 00:31:13,230 metamorphosis over the years with new 829 00:31:17,570 --> 00:31:15,150 new thoughts new ideas and changing 830 00:31:19,220 --> 00:31:17,580 opinions but that's to be expected when 831 00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:19,230 you continue investigating something I 832 00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:20,730 mean if you're not open to letting your 833 00:31:24,620 --> 00:31:22,530 ideas be changed then you've already 834 00:31:27,410 --> 00:31:24,630 made up your mind and your research is 835 00:31:29,930 --> 00:31:27,420 sort of futile at that point right as 836 00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:29,940 far as him claiming that he's done with 837 00:31:36,260 --> 00:31:33,930 UFOs done with research I we'll see but 838 00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:36,270 I understand that too I mean after 839 00:31:44,450 --> 00:31:39,090 investing so much time into this topic 840 00:31:46,010 --> 00:31:44,460 and not really getting you know 100 841 00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:46,020 percent confirmation of anything back 842 00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:49,490 not getting any of your your speculation 843 00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:52,050 any of those answers found it's 844 00:31:56,510 --> 00:31:54,690 frustrating and that's really what 845 00:31:59,270 --> 00:31:56,520 exploring the unknown is all about 846 00:32:01,850 --> 00:31:59,280 you're most likely not going to get 100% 847 00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:01,860 confirmation of thoughts that you put 848 00:32:05,750 --> 00:32:03,450 forward it's always going to be this 849 00:32:07,490 --> 00:32:05,760 endless chase I happen to love the chase 850 00:32:09,650 --> 00:32:07,500 that's that's what makes it fun for me I 851 00:32:11,970 --> 00:32:09,660 like the constant exploration of the 852 00:32:13,830 --> 00:32:11,980 unknown hoping to find answers but 853 00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:13,840 knowing that I most likely won't ever 854 00:32:19,409 --> 00:32:16,210 get those answers yeah and I think we 855 00:32:22,140 --> 00:32:19,419 also know for a fact that we have not 856 00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:22,150 seen the last of Jacque Malay with UFO 857 00:32:28,740 --> 00:32:24,730 stuff we will be seeing him soon with 858 00:32:31,380 --> 00:32:28,750 stuff so just keep your eyes peeled yeah 859 00:32:33,630 --> 00:32:31,390 I've I've heard some whispers as well so 860 00:32:35,010 --> 00:32:33,640 but and I hope you know again that we 861 00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:35,020 will continue to hear from John Valley 862 00:32:38,669 --> 00:32:36,970 wherever he may appear because from home 863 00:32:41,370 --> 00:32:38,679 part he's kind of my favorite UFO 864 00:32:43,650 --> 00:32:41,380 researcher again he's not infallible in 865 00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:43,660 his judgments he hasn't figured out what 866 00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:45,970 it's all about he has had to resort to 867 00:32:49,909 --> 00:32:48,130 speculations at times like others too 868 00:32:52,289 --> 00:32:49,919 but I mean I always enjoyed his books 869 00:32:54,419 --> 00:32:52,299 dimensions confrontations in my favorite 870 00:32:56,100 --> 00:32:54,429 I think really of them all is the third 871 00:32:57,600 --> 00:32:56,110 one revelations it was ballet at his 872 00:32:58,980 --> 00:32:57,610 most skeptical but I mean those books 873 00:33:01,740 --> 00:32:58,990 anyone who has not read the so-called 874 00:33:04,860 --> 00:33:01,750 alien contact trilogy please check those 875 00:33:06,780 --> 00:33:04,870 out again a guy who you know for all any 876 00:33:08,700 --> 00:33:06,790 UF ologies or any individuals 877 00:33:10,500 --> 00:33:08,710 shortcomings he really truly tried to 878 00:33:13,140 --> 00:33:10,510 bring a scientific approach to this and 879 00:33:14,370 --> 00:33:13,150 truly I think also achieved one thing if 880 00:33:16,710 --> 00:33:14,380 nothing else that was thinking outside 881 00:33:19,020 --> 00:33:16,720 the box but Ryan I want to come back to 882 00:33:21,419 --> 00:33:19,030 you for a moment because with ballet on 883 00:33:23,250 --> 00:33:21,429 our minds here you had kind of mentioned 884 00:33:26,310 --> 00:33:23,260 the invisible college you know the idea 885 00:33:28,230 --> 00:33:26,320 of people behind the scenes who are 886 00:33:30,270 --> 00:33:28,240 interested in ufology I know from my own 887 00:33:32,669 --> 00:33:30,280 experience I've got a lot of friends in 888 00:33:33,930 --> 00:33:32,679 academia and people who have backgrounds 889 00:33:36,180 --> 00:33:33,940 in government things like this who are 890 00:33:38,010 --> 00:33:36,190 very interested in this subject but they 891 00:33:39,690 --> 00:33:38,020 can't really go on record and talk about 892 00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:39,700 it publicly and there are obvious 893 00:33:44,070 --> 00:33:41,410 reasons why there's still that cultural 894 00:33:45,750 --> 00:33:44,080 stigma do you think that maybe with the 895 00:33:47,730 --> 00:33:45,760 current environment the shift that we 896 00:33:49,289 --> 00:33:47,740 saw since last December the knowledge of 897 00:33:50,340 --> 00:33:49,299 the Pentagon UFO program which we'll 898 00:33:50,760 --> 00:33:50,350 talk a little more about here in a 899 00:33:52,260 --> 00:33:50,770 moment 900 00:33:54,210 --> 00:33:52,270 but do you think that as a result of 901 00:33:55,620 --> 00:33:54,220 Leslie Keens reporting on this and some 902 00:33:59,760 --> 00:33:55,630 of the cultural shift that we've seen 903 00:34:01,860 --> 00:33:59,770 that it's becoming anymore acceptable 904 00:34:03,990 --> 00:34:01,870 for people in academic or government 905 00:34:05,909 --> 00:34:04,000 positions well people in positions with 906 00:34:07,950 --> 00:34:05,919 you know education whatever else the 907 00:34:09,899 --> 00:34:07,960 business sector can people credibly talk 908 00:34:11,790 --> 00:34:09,909 about this publicly now or are we 909 00:34:15,090 --> 00:34:11,800 getting any closer to a point where they 910 00:34:18,629 --> 00:34:15,100 can oh absolutely I mean I I've sort of 911 00:34:21,570 --> 00:34:18,639 deemed this the to the star syndrome as 912 00:34:22,859 --> 00:34:21,580 we've heard you know people are more 913 00:34:24,869 --> 00:34:22,869 comfortable talking about this topic 914 00:34:25,880 --> 00:34:24,879 especially mainstream media I mean we 915 00:34:28,649 --> 00:34:25,890 have so many 916 00:34:31,290 --> 00:34:28,659 scientists and people working for NASA 917 00:34:34,200 --> 00:34:31,300 who have written papers in the past God 918 00:34:36,690 --> 00:34:34,210 five months you know about these things 919 00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:36,700 you look at the O mu a mu thing and you 920 00:34:41,970 --> 00:34:39,610 have credible scientists hypothesizing 921 00:34:44,100 --> 00:34:41,980 this could be alien now of course that's 922 00:34:46,020 --> 00:34:44,110 what mainstream media latches onto that 923 00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:46,030 word alien when there's many other 924 00:34:51,780 --> 00:34:49,090 hypotheses out there as well but I do 925 00:34:54,930 --> 00:34:51,790 see a shift I do see this topic the 926 00:34:56,760 --> 00:34:54,940 ridicule factor shedding and I look 927 00:34:59,490 --> 00:34:56,770 forward to seeing more credible 928 00:35:01,410 --> 00:34:59,500 scientists academics coming forward I 929 00:35:05,640 --> 00:35:01,420 mean we recently learned there's going 930 00:35:07,710 --> 00:35:05,650 to be a course taught on ufology there's 931 00:35:09,540 --> 00:35:07,720 one already here in California and 932 00:35:11,820 --> 00:35:09,550 there's many others that are going to be 933 00:35:13,830 --> 00:35:11,830 making the college circuit soon so I 934 00:35:15,930 --> 00:35:13,840 think it's really interesting that shift 935 00:35:18,210 --> 00:35:15,940 that's happened since this story came 936 00:35:19,830 --> 00:35:18,220 out again I don't think it's gonna bring 937 00:35:22,140 --> 00:35:19,840 us any closer to an answer but like 938 00:35:22,590 --> 00:35:22,150 Jason said that journey is worth it for 939 00:35:28,050 --> 00:35:22,600 me 940 00:35:30,330 --> 00:35:28,060 it to the Stars I doubt they're gonna do 941 00:35:32,400 --> 00:35:30,340 it we can't solve the UFO mystery I 942 00:35:34,260 --> 00:35:32,410 don't see that being the most important 943 00:35:36,630 --> 00:35:34,270 thing about all this I see the journey 944 00:35:39,000 --> 00:35:36,640 and our personal revelations as that 945 00:35:41,460 --> 00:35:39,010 most important thing in all of this so 946 00:35:43,350 --> 00:35:41,470 yeah that's where I stand on that as 947 00:35:46,530 --> 00:35:43,360 with any good hypothetical that I'm not 948 00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:46,540 completely willing or ready to marry my 949 00:35:50,010 --> 00:35:48,490 entire thought process to I mean I'll 950 00:35:51,630 --> 00:35:50,020 just put it out there that there have 951 00:35:53,100 --> 00:35:51,640 been times where I've thought about well 952 00:35:56,220 --> 00:35:53,110 again really will borrow a term that 953 00:35:58,830 --> 00:35:56,230 ballet used the control mechanism idea 954 00:36:00,720 --> 00:35:58,840 what if UFOs are a control mechanism and 955 00:36:03,030 --> 00:36:00,730 in that regard I might kind of riff on 956 00:36:04,650 --> 00:36:03,040 that without explicitly you know putting 957 00:36:07,020 --> 00:36:04,660 it how Vallet did when he talked about 958 00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:07,030 it but I have wondered if whatever this 959 00:36:13,560 --> 00:36:09,010 phenomena is whatever its ultimate 960 00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:13,570 importance were if all the humans could 961 00:36:18,720 --> 00:36:15,370 possibly learn from it we're actually 962 00:36:21,330 --> 00:36:18,730 just studying it thinking about it and 963 00:36:23,160 --> 00:36:21,340 then the results of our thinking about 964 00:36:24,810 --> 00:36:23,170 this phenomena could actually lead to 965 00:36:27,270 --> 00:36:24,820 advancements in science for example 966 00:36:29,460 --> 00:36:27,280 let's say that all UFOs are really just 967 00:36:30,570 --> 00:36:29,470 swamp gas the planet Venus you know 968 00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:30,580 kites weather balloons and all this 969 00:36:35,670 --> 00:36:31,930 stuff I mean I really don't think that's 970 00:36:37,860 --> 00:36:35,680 the most logical conclusion but if they 971 00:36:39,420 --> 00:36:37,870 were and nonetheless there was a 972 00:36:41,460 --> 00:36:39,430 cultural phenomenon where peep 973 00:36:43,020 --> 00:36:41,470 thought they were seeing aircraft that 974 00:36:44,609 --> 00:36:43,030 could do extraordinary things and then 975 00:36:46,650 --> 00:36:44,619 we try to replicate those things I mean 976 00:36:48,569 --> 00:36:46,660 look once again to the stars with or 977 00:36:50,460 --> 00:36:48,579 without UFOs existing one of their 978 00:36:53,819 --> 00:36:50,470 stated objectives is to try and create 979 00:36:55,290 --> 00:36:53,829 this technology now what if scientific 980 00:36:57,180 --> 00:36:55,300 advancement results from our 981 00:36:59,130 --> 00:36:57,190 misperception of a phenomena and what if 982 00:37:01,319 --> 00:36:59,140 ultimately the UFOs don't even have to 983 00:37:03,480 --> 00:37:01,329 exist for them to have tremendous 984 00:37:05,970 --> 00:37:03,490 significance on the furtherance of the 985 00:37:07,559 --> 00:37:05,980 sciences and eventually the path that's 986 00:37:09,299 --> 00:37:07,569 gonna take us on in the future as 987 00:37:10,980 --> 00:37:09,309 humanity ie you know with with you being 988 00:37:12,299 --> 00:37:10,990 the guy but behind rogue planet 989 00:37:14,549 --> 00:37:12,309 primarily Jason won't we come over to 990 00:37:16,079 --> 00:37:14,559 you on that one the influence that UFOs 991 00:37:18,630 --> 00:37:16,089 could have on us whether or not they 992 00:37:20,430 --> 00:37:18,640 exist your thoughts I think we've 993 00:37:23,339 --> 00:37:20,440 already seen it I mean look look how 994 00:37:27,030 --> 00:37:23,349 much UFOs have influenced popular 995 00:37:30,210 --> 00:37:27,040 culture I I think I don't know when no 996 00:37:32,940 --> 00:37:30,220 other read but it certainly act it's 997 00:37:38,040 --> 00:37:32,950 caused is cause the whole industry I 998 00:37:42,120 --> 00:37:38,050 mean UFO lore is so massive but you know 999 00:37:45,270 --> 00:37:42,130 look at Hollywood look at a nice round 1000 00:37:48,329 --> 00:37:45,280 table we're happy now you know it it 1001 00:37:51,780 --> 00:37:48,339 fuels conversations so much thought so 1002 00:37:55,410 --> 00:37:51,790 much just guessing and hypothesizing 1003 00:37:58,349 --> 00:37:55,420 about what could be but I think UFO 1004 00:38:02,099 --> 00:37:58,359 research has gotten entirely too overly 1005 00:38:05,549 --> 00:38:02,109 complicated at times and too simplistic 1006 00:38:08,069 --> 00:38:05,559 and others but I do like to remind 1007 00:38:10,710 --> 00:38:08,079 people that in thinking about this 1008 00:38:14,150 --> 00:38:10,720 unknown thing these these random things 1009 00:38:17,640 --> 00:38:14,160 that are flying around in our airspace 1010 00:38:20,490 --> 00:38:17,650 they don't all and most likely won't all 1011 00:38:22,970 --> 00:38:20,500 have the same explanation they're not 1012 00:38:26,039 --> 00:38:22,980 necessarily and most likely aren't 1013 00:38:27,930 --> 00:38:26,049 related as many people like to say the 1014 00:38:30,210 --> 00:38:27,940 easy answer oh it's all related it's all 1015 00:38:31,470 --> 00:38:30,220 the same thing well that's an assumption 1016 00:38:33,210 --> 00:38:31,480 we don't know that 1017 00:38:35,940 --> 00:38:33,220 and if we're bringing extraterrestrials 1018 00:38:37,829 --> 00:38:35,950 into it it's very unlikely if these 1019 00:38:40,730 --> 00:38:37,839 there are extraterrestrial spacecraft 1020 00:38:43,109 --> 00:38:40,740 seen all over the globe all the time 1021 00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:43,119 it's possible they're all from the same 1022 00:38:47,520 --> 00:38:45,010 extraterrestrial but again that's just a 1023 00:38:49,980 --> 00:38:47,530 guess they're also or there's a lot of a 1024 00:38:51,780 --> 00:38:49,990 lot of assumptions going on and really 1025 00:38:53,160 --> 00:38:51,790 that's all we can do is make assumption 1026 00:38:55,620 --> 00:38:53,170 but in 1027 00:38:57,839 --> 00:38:55,630 doings you need to be conscious of those 1028 00:39:00,150 --> 00:38:57,849 assumptions and like you said Mike it's 1029 00:39:02,220 --> 00:39:00,160 important to be that objective observer 1030 00:39:03,660 --> 00:39:02,230 the objective researcher keep that 1031 00:39:07,980 --> 00:39:03,670 journalistic mind in the cautious 1032 00:39:11,130 --> 00:39:07,990 skepticism and value the truth more than 1033 00:39:12,690 --> 00:39:11,140 our personal beliefs yeah absolutely 1034 00:39:13,829 --> 00:39:12,700 you know speaking of personal beliefs 1035 00:39:16,440 --> 00:39:13,839 this is something that's kind of been 1036 00:39:18,900 --> 00:39:16,450 bothering me a little bit I started off 1037 00:39:21,450 --> 00:39:18,910 with the news of the Pentagon UFO 1038 00:39:23,190 --> 00:39:21,460 program Louis Elizondo his involvement 1039 00:39:24,960 --> 00:39:23,200 you know now working with to the stars 1040 00:39:26,609 --> 00:39:24,970 Tom DeLonge there's somebody that I 1041 00:39:28,410 --> 00:39:26,619 think everybody hears well familiar with 1042 00:39:31,049 --> 00:39:28,420 and is you know in some capacities even 1043 00:39:33,329 --> 00:39:31,059 worked with but I think that the the 1044 00:39:35,609 --> 00:39:33,339 concern I began to have a few months ago 1045 00:39:38,579 --> 00:39:35,619 and it is it is kind of continued to 1046 00:39:39,990 --> 00:39:38,589 kind of fester since then has been that 1047 00:39:41,549 --> 00:39:40,000 again with the extraordinary work that 1048 00:39:44,520 --> 00:39:41,559 jeremy Korbel and others have been doing 1049 00:39:46,589 --> 00:39:44,530 with his documentarian approach to this 1050 00:39:48,120 --> 00:39:46,599 you know going to these individuals and 1051 00:39:51,030 --> 00:39:48,130 working with people like respected 1052 00:39:53,339 --> 00:39:51,040 journalist george knapp reporting on 1053 00:39:54,960 --> 00:39:53,349 this and and in putting new information 1054 00:39:56,220 --> 00:39:54,970 out there archival footage and data and 1055 00:39:58,589 --> 00:39:56,230 things like this with regard to the 1056 00:40:00,870 --> 00:39:58,599 skinwalker ranch and bob bob Bigelow's 1057 00:40:02,280 --> 00:40:00,880 involvement and all this one thing that 1058 00:40:04,049 --> 00:40:02,290 definitely by the way again I can't say 1059 00:40:05,250 --> 00:40:04,059 enough good things about core bill and 1060 00:40:07,950 --> 00:40:05,260 his work right now he's done such a 1061 00:40:09,000 --> 00:40:07,960 great job with his documentaries but one 1062 00:40:11,609 --> 00:40:09,010 of the things that's kind of brought to 1063 00:40:12,900 --> 00:40:11,619 light is Bob Bigelow's involvement in 1064 00:40:14,370 --> 00:40:12,910 all of this and of course that was also 1065 00:40:16,220 --> 00:40:14,380 brought to our attention by Harry Reid 1066 00:40:18,510 --> 00:40:16,230 and some of the others who were really 1067 00:40:20,039 --> 00:40:18,520 helping to secure the funding for the 1068 00:40:22,079 --> 00:40:20,049 Pentagon UFO program so where's the 1069 00:40:24,990 --> 00:40:22,089 problem here well here is one of my 1070 00:40:26,640 --> 00:40:25,000 concerns there's so much focus put on 1071 00:40:29,069 --> 00:40:26,650 the fact that the Pentagon was studying 1072 00:40:30,960 --> 00:40:29,079 UFOs but we also know that a lot of that 1073 00:40:33,539 --> 00:40:30,970 money was given to guys like Bob Bigelow 1074 00:40:35,730 --> 00:40:33,549 and that he out sourced through MUFON we 1075 00:40:37,620 --> 00:40:35,740 know at least to a fairly good degree 1076 00:40:38,849 --> 00:40:37,630 what kinds of research MUFON was doing 1077 00:40:40,020 --> 00:40:38,859 it's not to say that it was bad but I 1078 00:40:41,250 --> 00:40:40,030 mean I don't think we can say that they 1079 00:40:43,650 --> 00:40:41,260 learned a whole lot more about this 1080 00:40:46,109 --> 00:40:43,660 phenomena then any of us are talking 1081 00:40:48,030 --> 00:40:46,119 about her know about right here I'm a 1082 00:40:49,559 --> 00:40:48,040 little skeptical of the idea that there 1083 00:40:51,780 --> 00:40:49,569 was information that move on or him 1084 00:40:53,099 --> 00:40:51,790 anybody else Bigelow whoever obtained 1085 00:40:55,140 --> 00:40:53,109 that was then being sent back to the 1086 00:40:57,000 --> 00:40:55,150 Pentagon or let alone that the Pentagon 1087 00:40:58,410 --> 00:40:57,010 had its own independent government side 1088 00:40:59,849 --> 00:40:58,420 studies that were being done 1089 00:41:02,520 --> 00:40:59,859 irrespective of all the aforementioned 1090 00:41:04,020 --> 00:41:02,530 that has brought forth any new knowledge 1091 00:41:06,569 --> 00:41:04,030 about UFOs and if we look at for 1092 00:41:07,079 --> 00:41:06,579 instance the footage from the USS nimitz 1093 00:41:09,180 --> 00:41:07,089 incident 1094 00:41:11,249 --> 00:41:09,190 fascinating story but even with this 1095 00:41:14,339 --> 00:41:11,259 high-tech I'm an extremely complicated 1096 00:41:16,380 --> 00:41:14,349 visual system known as the Raytheon at 1097 00:41:19,229 --> 00:41:16,390 FLIR system that's being utilized by the 1098 00:41:20,910 --> 00:41:19,239 Navy jets in question highly advanced 1099 00:41:23,160 --> 00:41:20,920 technology and yet the footage that we 1100 00:41:24,420 --> 00:41:23,170 have still doesn't really help us piece 1101 00:41:27,089 --> 00:41:24,430 together many more pieces of the puzzle 1102 00:41:29,609 --> 00:41:27,099 am I wrong to say that I'm concerned 1103 00:41:31,140 --> 00:41:29,619 about the hype that has really kind of 1104 00:41:33,509 --> 00:41:31,150 followed the reporting on the Pentagon 1105 00:41:35,400 --> 00:41:33,519 UFO program is there more to this story 1106 00:41:38,609 --> 00:41:35,410 or is there actually may be a lot less 1107 00:41:40,229 --> 00:41:38,619 than has been made by those who've been 1108 00:41:41,190 --> 00:41:40,239 talking about it Maureen let's start 1109 00:41:42,839 --> 00:41:41,200 with you what are your thoughts about 1110 00:41:45,620 --> 00:41:42,849 the whole program and really the 1111 00:41:48,839 --> 00:41:45,630 efficacy in the merit of it I think that 1112 00:41:51,719 --> 00:41:48,849 unfortunately a lot of the program the 1113 00:41:55,079 --> 00:41:51,729 idea behind it you know have we advanced 1114 00:41:57,809 --> 00:41:55,089 our research no however I think the 1115 00:41:59,849 --> 00:41:57,819 merit of it is getting the public to 1116 00:42:03,059 --> 00:41:59,859 take it more seriously which will in 1117 00:42:05,069 --> 00:42:03,069 turn advance studies as we go along at 1118 00:42:07,859 --> 00:42:05,079 least we hope you know we have a lot 1119 00:42:10,979 --> 00:42:07,869 more people looking at this seriously 1120 00:42:14,239 --> 00:42:10,989 and you know the fact of the matter is 1121 00:42:17,670 --> 00:42:14,249 is the government's been studying UFO 1122 00:42:19,620 --> 00:42:17,680 for you know since the beginning of time 1123 00:42:24,209 --> 00:42:19,630 so other countries you know there are a 1124 00:42:26,519 --> 00:42:24,219 ton of official public organizations 1125 00:42:30,680 --> 00:42:26,529 that are in other countries that are 1126 00:42:34,769 --> 00:42:30,690 researching UFOs and I know that even 1127 00:42:37,890 --> 00:42:34,779 just recently Lu Elizondo announced well 1128 00:42:41,519 --> 00:42:37,900 hinted that perhaps we might see a 1129 00:42:44,940 --> 00:42:41,529 public UFO study here in the near future 1130 00:42:46,440 --> 00:42:44,950 from our government right whether that 1131 00:42:49,620 --> 00:42:46,450 actually happens or not you know 1132 00:42:51,450 --> 00:42:49,630 doubtful so in terms yes there's there's 1133 00:42:53,789 --> 00:42:51,460 a lot of effort and a lot of money going 1134 00:42:56,700 --> 00:42:53,799 into things and we're not we're still 1135 00:42:59,609 --> 00:42:56,710 treading water basically but I think 1136 00:43:02,219 --> 00:42:59,619 there's merit to it in the sense like I 1137 00:43:05,160 --> 00:43:02,229 said that it is bringing a more positive 1138 00:43:07,950 --> 00:43:05,170 eye on the phenomenon and people are 1139 00:43:10,200 --> 00:43:07,960 starting to realize that you know it's 1140 00:43:12,719 --> 00:43:10,210 the idea isn't crazy that there are 1141 00:43:13,950 --> 00:43:12,729 unknown objects flying around and we 1142 00:43:16,920 --> 00:43:13,960 don't know what they are are they 1143 00:43:19,410 --> 00:43:16,930 extraterrestrial are they military are 1144 00:43:20,580 --> 00:43:19,420 what what's going on because as far as 1145 00:43:23,820 --> 00:43:20,590 I'm concerned in 1146 00:43:25,830 --> 00:43:23,830 the object we don't know what it is 1147 00:43:29,220 --> 00:43:25,840 flying around our airspace is a 1148 00:43:32,550 --> 00:43:29,230 potential threat yes we don't know what 1149 00:43:36,300 --> 00:43:32,560 it is so so yeah I think it's a fine 1150 00:43:38,790 --> 00:43:36,310 line so we're I think analyzing how that 1151 00:43:42,060 --> 00:43:38,800 money is being spent and yes was MUFON 1152 00:43:44,280 --> 00:43:42,070 the right place for Bigelow to be you 1153 00:43:46,230 --> 00:43:44,290 know outsourcing work to probably not 1154 00:43:47,250 --> 00:43:46,240 because there's a lot of bias within the 1155 00:43:49,980 --> 00:43:47,260 organization 1156 00:43:52,980 --> 00:43:49,990 I'm always one of those people that you 1157 00:43:55,860 --> 00:43:52,990 know send it to like if you're sending 1158 00:43:58,710 --> 00:43:55,870 samples of metal objects or something 1159 00:44:01,110 --> 00:43:58,720 that you think might be possibly 1160 00:44:04,290 --> 00:44:01,120 extraterrestrial in nature don't send it 1161 00:44:06,600 --> 00:44:04,300 to a lab where the person is active in 1162 00:44:09,570 --> 00:44:06,610 the UFO phenomenon because you're 1163 00:44:13,800 --> 00:44:09,580 setting yourself up for failure in that 1164 00:44:16,080 --> 00:44:13,810 case I think personally you know I think 1165 00:44:19,470 --> 00:44:16,090 there has to be so much objectivity in 1166 00:44:21,780 --> 00:44:19,480 research within this whole field of 1167 00:44:23,580 --> 00:44:21,790 study that we have to be very careful 1168 00:44:25,830 --> 00:44:23,590 where we're putting our dollars I don't 1169 00:44:28,290 --> 00:44:25,840 know that's that's my two cents on it 1170 00:44:30,660 --> 00:44:28,300 I completely agree and just two things I 1171 00:44:31,820 --> 00:44:30,670 want to say one Lewis Elizondo you know 1172 00:44:34,350 --> 00:44:31,830 I think he's been a fantastic 1173 00:44:36,300 --> 00:44:34,360 spokesperson every media appearance I've 1174 00:44:38,520 --> 00:44:36,310 seen him do he's done a remarkable job 1175 00:44:40,140 --> 00:44:38,530 talking about you know what little we 1176 00:44:41,760 --> 00:44:40,150 know but you know again phrasing this in 1177 00:44:44,010 --> 00:44:41,770 terms of look we're not saying they are 1178 00:44:45,540 --> 00:44:44,020 this but there are two points we need to 1179 00:44:47,100 --> 00:44:45,550 keep in mind that we can't identify them 1180 00:44:49,320 --> 00:44:47,110 and that yes whatever that is even if 1181 00:44:52,320 --> 00:44:49,330 there's no apparent threat that's been 1182 00:44:54,060 --> 00:44:52,330 indicated in terms of the actions or 1183 00:44:55,650 --> 00:44:54,070 capabilities nonetheless this is 1184 00:44:58,320 --> 00:44:55,660 something that should be of national 1185 00:45:00,210 --> 00:44:58,330 security importance and it's shifted my 1186 00:45:02,430 --> 00:45:00,220 whole perspective I mean I really look 1187 00:45:04,500 --> 00:45:02,440 at UFOs primarily now as a you know a 1188 00:45:06,210 --> 00:45:04,510 subject of national security interest 1189 00:45:08,400 --> 00:45:06,220 even though there is no apparent threat 1190 00:45:10,200 --> 00:45:08,410 or maybe I should say no threat apparent 1191 00:45:12,030 --> 00:45:10,210 but again we start to look at this in 1192 00:45:13,650 --> 00:45:12,040 those terms Ryan want to come over to 1193 00:45:16,170 --> 00:45:13,660 you I mean again your general thoughts 1194 00:45:18,660 --> 00:45:16,180 on the efficacy of the Pentagon program 1195 00:45:20,070 --> 00:45:18,670 and related studies and maybe the best 1196 00:45:21,960 --> 00:45:20,080 that we've seen out of it were the worst 1197 00:45:24,390 --> 00:45:21,970 what are your thoughts yeah I mean I I 1198 00:45:26,700 --> 00:45:24,400 would have to agree I think this a tip 1199 00:45:30,120 --> 00:45:26,710 thing has been highly exaggerated I 1200 00:45:31,130 --> 00:45:30,130 recently spoke to John Greenwald our foi 1201 00:45:34,520 --> 00:45:31,140 a you 1202 00:45:36,590 --> 00:45:34,530 expert at this point well yeah yeah when 1203 00:45:39,080 --> 00:45:36,600 he dug for anything on a tip he found 1204 00:45:41,060 --> 00:45:39,090 almost nothing and that's not to say the 1205 00:45:44,870 --> 00:45:41,070 program didn't exist we know it existed 1206 00:45:48,140 --> 00:45:44,880 but to to John's credit he was able to 1207 00:45:50,320 --> 00:45:48,150 find out that you know the media was the 1208 00:45:53,720 --> 00:45:50,330 one pushing that this was advanced 1209 00:45:55,670 --> 00:45:53,730 aerospace threat identification whereas 1210 00:45:57,140 --> 00:45:55,680 the actual program was aviation threat 1211 00:45:59,570 --> 00:45:57,150 so right there right 1212 00:46:01,760 --> 00:45:59,580 immediately the mainstream media was 1213 00:46:04,550 --> 00:46:01,770 pushing something else they were making 1214 00:46:06,530 --> 00:46:04,560 it bigger than it had to be Jason and I 1215 00:46:07,220 --> 00:46:06,540 have discussed 22 million dollars that's 1216 00:46:12,800 --> 00:46:07,230 nothing 1217 00:46:14,960 --> 00:46:12,810 Elizondo again yes I agree he's a really 1218 00:46:17,600 --> 00:46:14,970 good spokesperson but we have seen some 1219 00:46:20,030 --> 00:46:17,610 blunders with this whole to the Stars 1220 00:46:23,750 --> 00:46:20,040 thing you know the putting up of CGI 1221 00:46:27,920 --> 00:46:23,760 hoaxed images and and and little things 1222 00:46:29,870 --> 00:46:27,930 like this but I will speak for Jason 1223 00:46:31,190 --> 00:46:29,880 here and and he brought up this really 1224 00:46:33,230 --> 00:46:31,200 good point to me that I didn't think 1225 00:46:35,660 --> 00:46:33,240 about you know Lewis Elizondo is not a 1226 00:46:38,540 --> 00:46:35,670 UFO historian he was he was hired to 1227 00:46:40,880 --> 00:46:38,550 investigate current threats to national 1228 00:46:42,650 --> 00:46:40,890 security and in terms of these you ApS 1229 00:46:46,580 --> 00:46:42,660 so I think we have to keep that in mind 1230 00:46:48,110 --> 00:46:46,590 that our head of the UFO program he's 1231 00:46:50,750 --> 00:46:48,120 not a UFO historian he's not going to 1232 00:46:54,170 --> 00:46:50,760 know every little hoaxed photo or detail 1233 00:46:57,050 --> 00:46:54,180 to every historical UFO case so I think 1234 00:47:00,050 --> 00:46:57,060 they have the best of intentions to the 1235 00:47:02,450 --> 00:47:00,060 stars I really really believe that and I 1236 00:47:04,940 --> 00:47:02,460 think they are pushing this topic 1237 00:47:06,560 --> 00:47:04,950 forward and getting it out there in 1238 00:47:09,830 --> 00:47:06,570 terms of how important the actual a tip 1239 00:47:11,840 --> 00:47:09,840 program is not much and that's kind of 1240 00:47:13,430 --> 00:47:11,850 where I lay in terms of that but what 1241 00:47:15,230 --> 00:47:13,440 are we getting out of it a hell of a lot 1242 00:47:17,690 --> 00:47:15,240 more than I think a tip ever did so 1243 00:47:19,160 --> 00:47:17,700 that's we're interested yeah yeah and 1244 00:47:21,800 --> 00:47:19,170 Jason before I come back over to you too 1245 00:47:24,110 --> 00:47:21,810 yeah I agree I think that the the most 1246 00:47:26,180 --> 00:47:24,120 proactive feature of this entire affair 1247 00:47:28,220 --> 00:47:26,190 has not been what they actually achieved 1248 00:47:30,500 --> 00:47:28,230 with said program which seems by the way 1249 00:47:31,700 --> 00:47:30,510 to have been kind of like an I don't 1250 00:47:34,040 --> 00:47:31,710 want to say that there was no such 1251 00:47:35,570 --> 00:47:34,050 program you know but then again how 1252 00:47:38,030 --> 00:47:35,580 better to keep something out of the 1253 00:47:39,830 --> 00:47:38,040 purview of FOIA then to not actually 1254 00:47:41,810 --> 00:47:39,840 designate a program and give it an 1255 00:47:43,070 --> 00:47:41,820 official name which might in part and I 1256 00:47:44,600 --> 00:47:43,080 don't know that I've heard anybody else 1257 00:47:45,109 --> 00:47:44,610 put it quite that way although there's 1258 00:47:48,440 --> 00:47:45,119 definitely 1259 00:47:50,900 --> 00:47:48,450 talk about that kind of idea that there 1260 00:47:52,400 --> 00:47:50,910 may not have been one singular official 1261 00:47:54,079 --> 00:47:52,410 name or acronym because of course it 1262 00:47:55,670 --> 00:47:54,089 first came out advanced aerospace that 1263 00:47:57,410 --> 00:47:55,680 later was changed to aviation but then 1264 00:47:59,150 --> 00:47:57,420 of course Paul Dean and I talked about 1265 00:48:00,289 --> 00:47:59,160 this and a number of others have touched 1266 00:48:03,259 --> 00:48:00,299 on it too the idea that there was this 1267 00:48:05,390 --> 00:48:03,269 advanced weapons systems application 1268 00:48:07,999 --> 00:48:05,400 program which was almost predecessor or 1269 00:48:09,829 --> 00:48:08,009 an umbrella that encapsulated the whole 1270 00:48:11,930 --> 00:48:09,839 eight ship things so again the fact that 1271 00:48:13,640 --> 00:48:11,940 we can't decide on the official name or 1272 00:48:15,769 --> 00:48:13,650 whether there was one organization or if 1273 00:48:17,960 --> 00:48:15,779 its name changed or the purview or the 1274 00:48:20,440 --> 00:48:17,970 focus changed seems to indicate to me 1275 00:48:22,849 --> 00:48:20,450 that there was almost an intentional 1276 00:48:24,049 --> 00:48:22,859 amorphous element to it how better to be 1277 00:48:26,299 --> 00:48:24,059 able to keep it off the books and hey 1278 00:48:28,099 --> 00:48:26,309 like John Greenwald said he hasn't 1279 00:48:29,660 --> 00:48:28,109 managed to get anything by a foyer but 1280 00:48:31,099 --> 00:48:29,670 then again our good friend Alejandro I 1281 00:48:33,890 --> 00:48:31,109 recently told me that I think he had 1282 00:48:34,940 --> 00:48:33,900 filed an FOI a request as well and was 1283 00:48:36,980 --> 00:48:34,950 told that they were like four or five 1284 00:48:39,289 --> 00:48:36,990 hundred requests about that same subject 1285 00:48:40,819 --> 00:48:39,299 ahead of him we may still be waiting on 1286 00:48:42,289 --> 00:48:40,829 those results for a while for all we 1287 00:48:44,210 --> 00:48:42,299 know Paul Dean told me the same thing 1288 00:48:45,499 --> 00:48:44,220 there are a lot of people asking we may 1289 00:48:47,720 --> 00:48:45,509 have to wait and see if anything else is 1290 00:48:49,190 --> 00:48:47,730 forthcoming but Brian I definitely agree 1291 00:48:51,109 --> 00:48:49,200 with you that even if we can't say that 1292 00:48:53,269 --> 00:48:51,119 the scope of the program itself has 1293 00:48:55,400 --> 00:48:53,279 given us new information the cultural 1294 00:48:59,569 --> 00:48:55,410 impact of knowledge of it has seemed to 1295 00:49:01,249 --> 00:48:59,579 shift the direction of UFO well actually 1296 00:49:03,109 --> 00:49:01,259 I should say that in terms of making it 1297 00:49:04,489 --> 00:49:03,119 like a household name UFOs are kind of 1298 00:49:06,470 --> 00:49:04,499 not only becoming something that people 1299 00:49:08,120 --> 00:49:06,480 talk about again but once again there's 1300 00:49:10,640 --> 00:49:08,130 a bit of a credibility factor it's at 1301 00:49:12,130 --> 00:49:10,650 least improved somewhat Jason it's a 1302 00:49:14,359 --> 00:49:12,140 little sad though isn't it that it takes 1303 00:49:16,249 --> 00:49:14,369 knowledge of a government program 1304 00:49:18,829 --> 00:49:16,259 looking at UFOs to get people to feel 1305 00:49:20,839 --> 00:49:18,839 like they can talk about it again yeah 1306 00:49:24,140 --> 00:49:20,849 that's right but you know I mean any 1307 00:49:25,940 --> 00:49:24,150 time there's a big blowup of a UFO 1308 00:49:28,249 --> 00:49:25,950 related story in the media that gets 1309 00:49:30,829 --> 00:49:28,259 people talking I can't tell you how many 1310 00:49:33,769 --> 00:49:30,839 times just just this year this past year 1311 00:49:36,650 --> 00:49:33,779 there were great UFO stories in the 1312 00:49:38,239 --> 00:49:36,660 media and people I would have people at 1313 00:49:39,950 --> 00:49:38,249 work come into my office and want to 1314 00:49:43,309 --> 00:49:39,960 talk to me about you know what I thought 1315 00:49:45,440 --> 00:49:43,319 about the host story yeah it's just cool 1316 00:49:47,450 --> 00:49:45,450 that that hat in a public setting you 1317 00:49:48,650 --> 00:49:47,460 know completely removed from UFOs and a 1318 00:49:51,440 --> 00:49:48,660 lot of these people I don't think they 1319 00:49:53,539 --> 00:49:51,450 had any idea that I'm involved in UFOs 1320 00:49:55,069 --> 00:49:53,549 they just wanted to talk about it but 1321 00:49:57,470 --> 00:49:55,079 certainly once they found out that the 1322 00:49:58,820 --> 00:49:57,480 floodgates have opened that happens but 1323 00:50:00,230 --> 00:49:58,830 I find the 1324 00:50:02,390 --> 00:50:00,240 whole program and the news of it 1325 00:50:04,250 --> 00:50:02,400 fascinating and how rapidly it spread 1326 00:50:06,920 --> 00:50:04,260 and really the effect it had on the UFO 1327 00:50:10,160 --> 00:50:06,930 community you know I think that's where 1328 00:50:12,350 --> 00:50:10,170 much if not most of the conversation 1329 00:50:14,720 --> 00:50:12,360 about this has happened and again we 1330 00:50:19,280 --> 00:50:14,730 come back to a lot of speculation a 1331 00:50:21,380 --> 00:50:19,290 whole lot of speculation and people love 1332 00:50:24,230 --> 00:50:21,390 to jump all over things that Lou 1333 00:50:26,540 --> 00:50:24,240 Elizondo says and in read in my opinion 1334 00:50:30,500 --> 00:50:26,550 way too much into them certainly more 1335 00:50:34,340 --> 00:50:30,510 than I think he's intending and to 1336 00:50:36,770 --> 00:50:34,350 Ryan's point of you know lose knowledge 1337 00:50:39,170 --> 00:50:36,780 on the UFO subject again it wasn't his 1338 00:50:42,710 --> 00:50:39,180 job to be a UFO expert he was just a 1339 00:50:45,380 --> 00:50:42,720 person who allegedly was in charge of 1340 00:50:48,890 --> 00:50:45,390 running this program of looking into 1341 00:50:53,570 --> 00:50:48,900 these potential threats but you know 1342 00:50:55,550 --> 00:50:53,580 even just I think it was recently I will 1343 00:50:56,840 --> 00:50:55,560 say last night is the as of when we're 1344 00:51:00,080 --> 00:50:56,850 recording this it happened last night 1345 00:51:01,970 --> 00:51:00,090 George Knapp did a rota interview that 1346 00:51:07,400 --> 00:51:01,980 he did with Lou Elizondo a recent 1347 00:51:09,020 --> 00:51:07,410 interview and Lou mentions about how you 1348 00:51:12,740 --> 00:51:09,030 know something big could potentially be 1349 00:51:15,590 --> 00:51:12,750 a potential like Maureen investigation 1350 00:51:20,260 --> 00:51:15,600 program in 2019 we'll see but he also 1351 00:51:23,510 --> 00:51:20,270 mentioned how thing about the volume of 1352 00:51:25,460 --> 00:51:23,520 military like airplane encounters and 1353 00:51:28,580 --> 00:51:25,470 things that are happening and documented 1354 00:51:31,250 --> 00:51:28,590 like this was some new secret revelation 1355 00:51:33,530 --> 00:51:31,260 we already know that but for Lou 1356 00:51:37,580 --> 00:51:33,540 somebody who's just stepping his foot 1357 00:51:40,070 --> 00:51:37,590 into full-time UFO guy this is all new 1358 00:51:41,360 --> 00:51:40,080 and exciting to him even when he first 1359 00:51:43,340 --> 00:51:41,370 stepped out on the stage and started 1360 00:51:46,610 --> 00:51:43,350 talking about how we now know the 1361 00:51:49,490 --> 00:51:46,620 phenomena is real well yes for people 1362 00:51:51,440 --> 00:51:49,500 who have been researching UFOs for any 1363 00:51:53,990 --> 00:51:51,450 period of time we know that UFOs exist 1364 00:51:55,850 --> 00:51:54,000 like that is not a new thing to us and 1365 00:51:57,890 --> 00:51:55,860 this has been going on for a very long 1366 00:52:00,680 --> 00:51:57,900 time and the government has investigated 1367 00:52:02,930 --> 00:52:00,690 it we know that already but for somebody 1368 00:52:05,900 --> 00:52:02,940 new stepping into this all these things 1369 00:52:08,390 --> 00:52:05,910 are big news flash exciting things so 1370 00:52:10,490 --> 00:52:08,400 when I hear Lou speak I mean that's 1371 00:52:12,500 --> 00:52:10,500 that's how I'm viewing his statements is 1372 00:52:14,750 --> 00:52:12,510 as somebody new coming into this 1373 00:52:17,510 --> 00:52:14,760 really digging into it and finding out 1374 00:52:21,320 --> 00:52:17,520 how much there is to this phenomenon and 1375 00:52:24,110 --> 00:52:21,330 how big it is and how many reports we 1376 00:52:25,850 --> 00:52:24,120 have from credible people I like it in 1377 00:52:28,280 --> 00:52:25,860 other words she could just as easily say 1378 00:52:31,370 --> 00:52:28,290 I'm not a ufologist I just happen to 1379 00:52:33,320 --> 00:52:31,380 investigate UFOs that's right that's 1380 00:52:34,340 --> 00:52:33,330 right no I like that and maybe we could 1381 00:52:37,010 --> 00:52:34,350 all benefit a little bit from 1382 00:52:39,050 --> 00:52:37,020 remembering that nobody is really a 1383 00:52:41,090 --> 00:52:39,060 complete expert on UFOs they're people 1384 00:52:43,340 --> 00:52:41,100 who are experts on the anecdotal history 1385 00:52:44,660 --> 00:52:43,350 of sightings they applied science to it 1386 00:52:46,700 --> 00:52:44,670 but there is an awful lot about this 1387 00:52:48,770 --> 00:52:46,710 subject that we don't know it'd be awful 1388 00:52:50,960 --> 00:52:48,780 hard I think to be an expert in it but 1389 00:52:52,670 --> 00:52:50,970 this may be the closest we have come at 1390 00:52:54,470 --> 00:52:52,680 least within the last couple of hours in 1391 00:52:56,120 --> 00:52:54,480 my little sphere of existence to having 1392 00:52:58,280 --> 00:52:56,130 an expert UFO panel and so I want to 1393 00:53:00,500 --> 00:52:58,290 thank my panelists from rogue planet and 1394 00:53:01,910 --> 00:53:00,510 wish you all happy holidays before I 1395 00:53:03,350 --> 00:53:01,920 turn you all loose really quickly tell 1396 00:53:04,880 --> 00:53:03,360 me about what's going on for you in the 1397 00:53:06,860 --> 00:53:04,890 new year and where people can find you 1398 00:53:09,560 --> 00:53:06,870 online Mauryan we'll begin with you okay 1399 00:53:12,350 --> 00:53:09,570 I can be found at rogue planet TV and 1400 00:53:15,080 --> 00:53:12,360 twitter at marine ellsbury same with 1401 00:53:17,540 --> 00:53:15,090 instagram working on in the new year 1402 00:53:20,540 --> 00:53:17,550 we're starting spacing out back out our 1403 00:53:23,570 --> 00:53:20,550 web series that Jase and I of ran for 1404 00:53:25,640 --> 00:53:23,580 years and I'll be working on some books 1405 00:53:28,010 --> 00:53:25,650 and hopefully getting some time to 1406 00:53:30,020 --> 00:53:28,020 actually do some infield research 1407 00:53:32,420 --> 00:53:30,030 because it's hard to find time these 1408 00:53:34,940 --> 00:53:32,430 days that's right you only find time 1409 00:53:36,650 --> 00:53:34,950 when you can make it trust me I know the 1410 00:53:38,570 --> 00:53:36,660 feeling so great to hear by the way that 1411 00:53:40,670 --> 00:53:38,580 spacing spacing out is coming back I've 1412 00:53:43,010 --> 00:53:40,680 always enjoyed that show and the mutual 1413 00:53:44,630 --> 00:53:43,020 endeavors you guys have done so best of 1414 00:53:46,370 --> 00:53:44,640 luck with that in the new year mr. 1415 00:53:48,200 --> 00:53:46,380 Sprague by the way tell folks where they 1416 00:53:49,280 --> 00:53:48,210 can find your fabulous podcast and 1417 00:53:51,650 --> 00:53:49,290 anything else that you're working on 1418 00:53:53,690 --> 00:53:51,660 absolutely everything can be found at 1419 00:53:56,330 --> 00:53:53,700 somewhere in the skies dot-com I am 1420 00:53:57,980 --> 00:53:56,340 coming up to my 100th episode so I never 1421 00:54:00,350 --> 00:53:57,990 thought I'd make it that far so that's 1422 00:54:01,820 --> 00:54:00,360 that's exciting but yeah just like 1423 00:54:04,250 --> 00:54:01,830 Maureen said working on some book 1424 00:54:05,990 --> 00:54:04,260 projects moving back to the East Coast 1425 00:54:09,170 --> 00:54:06,000 so I'm looking forward to bringing my 1426 00:54:11,780 --> 00:54:09,180 research back there and the last thing 1427 00:54:14,600 --> 00:54:11,790 I'll say is look for me on your TV 1428 00:54:17,540 --> 00:54:14,610 screens in January I can't say much else 1429 00:54:18,970 --> 00:54:17,550 but that's all they're letting me say 1430 00:54:21,410 --> 00:54:18,980 right now so I'll leave it at that 1431 00:54:25,670 --> 00:54:21,420 Yeah right Ryan's gonna be in Project 1432 00:54:26,630 --> 00:54:25,680 Blue Book he plays J Allen Hynek I love 1433 00:54:28,099 --> 00:54:26,640 it my gosh 1434 00:54:29,450 --> 00:54:28,109 I'm really excited about that show by 1435 00:54:32,000 --> 00:54:29,460 the way there's gonna be all kinds of 1436 00:54:33,140 --> 00:54:32,010 great UFO content coming out in 2019 but 1437 00:54:35,690 --> 00:54:33,150 Jason I'm sure you can probably 1438 00:54:36,920 --> 00:54:35,700 contribute to a little of our advance 1439 00:54:38,089 --> 00:54:36,930 knowledge about some of those projects 1440 00:54:39,349 --> 00:54:38,099 including the ones that you're working 1441 00:54:39,710 --> 00:54:39,359 on what's going on for you in the new 1442 00:54:41,809 --> 00:54:39,720 year 1443 00:54:44,089 --> 00:54:41,819 pretty much the same working on some 1444 00:54:47,690 --> 00:54:44,099 book projects some of which you know I'm 1445 00:54:51,589 --> 00:54:47,700 writing some publishing row planet is is 1446 00:54:54,380 --> 00:54:51,599 doing some book publishing coming soon 1447 00:54:55,789 --> 00:54:54,390 got some conferences conference 1448 00:54:57,200 --> 00:54:55,799 appearances coming up those will be 1449 00:54:58,940 --> 00:54:57,210 announced shortly and gonna be doing 1450 00:55:01,819 --> 00:54:58,950 some speaking engagements with mr. 1451 00:55:04,099 --> 00:55:01,829 Sprague some with Maureen Elsberry and 1452 00:55:06,740 --> 00:55:04,109 we've got some video projects up our 1453 00:55:08,690 --> 00:55:06,750 sleeves to excellent I'm looking forward 1454 00:55:09,980 --> 00:55:08,700 to all of it one New Year's resolution 1455 00:55:12,440 --> 00:55:09,990 I'll leave you guys with we've got to do 1456 00:55:14,059 --> 00:55:12,450 this more often it's been far too long I 1457 00:55:16,069 --> 00:55:14,069 never get to see you guys or talk to you 1458 00:55:18,589 --> 00:55:16,079 enough and so I hope that with all the 1459 00:55:20,450 --> 00:55:18,599 eventing and planning and publishing and 1460 00:55:21,920 --> 00:55:20,460 promoting and all kinds of interesting 1461 00:55:23,059 --> 00:55:21,930 ideas that are coming forth in the new 1462 00:55:24,950 --> 00:55:23,069 year that we'll be able to do a little 1463 00:55:26,420 --> 00:55:24,960 more of it together so thank you all for 1464 00:55:28,970 --> 00:55:26,430 being here being a part of this panel 1465 00:55:31,700 --> 00:55:28,980 and for being friends and compatriots of 1466 00:55:34,180 --> 00:55:31,710 mine in this ever perplexing field of 1467 00:55:35,100 --> 00:55:34,190 study thank you so much 1468 00:55:55,719 --> 00:55:35,110 [Music] 1469 00:55:57,489 --> 00:55:55,729 somewhere in the skies is produced by 1470 00:55:59,679 --> 00:55:57,499 Third Kind productions in association 1471 00:56:01,209 --> 00:55:59,689 with the entertainment one podcast